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PostSubject: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 13:12

I couldn't find this question, so I hope I'm not opening a useless topic, but here goes...

Most of the questions have been answered/improved in the FAQ en Errata by GW. But I still have 2 Q's though:

1) Why does it say at the description of the Voidmine: "Counts as firing a weapon" (or something similar), since the FAQ cleared up the voidmine can be used regardless of the speed the
Voidraven Bomber is moving at in its Movement phase.

2) Just to be clear, I can also drop the VoidMine when moving SuperSonic?

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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 14:58

I haven't seen the FAQ, but it seems very unlikely that GW would let it fire the weapon when using Supersonic. Is the wording really "regardless of the distance moved during the Movement Phase"?



Supersonic just gives you the option of moving a lot further when going Flat Out, and Flat Out means you aren't allowed to fire any weapons.



Oh, Wazdakka's bike can fire, but he has terrible BS, so no bother.



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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 15:32

So 12" max?

It's the exact wording, yeah...

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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 15:37

Q: Can a void mine be used regardless of the speed the Voidraven Bomber is moving at in its Movement phase? (p47) A: Yes.

It doesn't come any clearer than that. You can use the void mine regardless of the speed the voidraven bomber moved at. I suspect that they either changed their mind or it's something that will make more sense in the next edition (like the "as written" version of, say, the Baron's power).

And the entire FAQ's here: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1730264a_Dark_Eldar_1_0a.pdf
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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 15:58

1.
DE FAQ ver.1.0 wrote:

Q: Can a void mine be used regardless of the speed the
Voidraven Bomber is moving at in its Movement phase?
(p47)
A: Yes.

This sentence states it clearly, the void mine can be used, while moving 36"

DE FAQ ver.1.0 wrote:

Q: A void mine is used in the Movement phase. How does
this effect what weapons can be fired by the Voidraven
Bomber in the Shooting phase? (p47)
A: The void mine does not count towards the number of
weapons a Voidraven Bomber can fire that turn.

So the void mine does not count towards the number of weapons a Voidraven Bomber can fire per turn and if you moved 12" you may still fire one not defensive weapon.
But:
DE_C p.47 wrote:

...Note that this counts as using a weapon.
What does this mean?
Just that the void mine is a weapon for all other purposes. Normally weapons can't be used, when moving flat out, but the void mine can. Normally firing a weapon counts towards the number of weapons fired this turn, but the void mine doesn't.
But what happens, if your crew is stunned? Or when night fighting is in effect? Or when you suffer a weapon destroyed result? Or when any obscure special rule prevents you from using weapons?
As the void mine is a weapon and using it counts as using a weapon it may not be used in any circumstances you're not allowed to fire any weapons, besides those explicitely allowed and it follows all special rules in effect, like night fighting.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 16:18

@Tiri Rana wrote:
1.
But what happens, if your crew is stunned? Or when night fighting is in effect? Or when you suffer a weapon destroyed result? Or when any obscure special rule prevents you from using weapons?
As the void mine is a weapon and using it counts as using a weapon it may not be used in any circumstances you're not allowed to fire any weapons, besides those explicitely allowed and it follows all special rules in effect, like night fighting.
Good one, I hadn't thought about that obvious connotation.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 16:47

Just to add another relative void mine question:

If you move 12" (cruising speed) and drop the void mine on a target, are you forced to only fire the lances or any missiles at that same target?

I am guessing you so.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 17:31

Yeah, I feared that question, since it is complicated to solve.
Probably not everyone will accept my argumentation, but I think it's viable.

My solution is that no, you don't need to fire weapons at the same target.

The reason why I think this is so, is that the rule, that say you must do so is implemented in the shooting phase section, under point one of the shooting sequence: check line of sight & pick a target. And solely there.
BRB p.15 wrote:
A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not
locked in combat as its target, and may not split its fire
among different targets.
If you use a weapon in your movement phase, you're not required to pick a target, in this way.
Additionally there is a paragraph in under assault phase that says:
BRB p.33 wrote:

In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the
Shooting phase can only assault the unit that it shot at
So this only counts for weapons fired in the shooting phase, not in the movement phase and tanks, that tank shocked, don't need to fire at their target, too.
BRB p.68 wrote:

If the tank moved slowly enough during the tank shock
attack, it may fire as normal in the Shooting phase.

So a unit that uses a weapon during it's movement phase, may still pick a target in it's shooting phase, as described there and obviously must fire all it's weapons fired in the shooting phase at the same target and it may only assault the unit it fired at in the shooting phase.


I know, that there are other possible interpretations and that there is no sentence in the rules that tells us explicitely what to do.
Maybe this will be FAQed, but I doubt it.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 18:36

I personally believe Tiri has the correct interpretation there.

There is no rule obligating you to shoot at a target you targeted in the Movement Phase.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 20:33

@Thor665 wrote:
I personally believe Tiri has the correct interpretation there.

There is no rule obligating you to shoot at a target you targeted in the Movement Phase.

That's my take on it, as well.

TBH, I still think that the rules on that thing weren't exactly Phil Kelly's finest hour. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 21:16

Actually I'm rather fond of all the attacks in movement phase stuff - it's tricksy and has no conflicts within the rules except ones people bring with them.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 23:06

Wow, great questions and even better answers. Thnx Nepenthe and especially Tiri!

All in all makes the VoidRaven more viable to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13 2011, 07:56

@Thor665 wrote:
Actually I'm rather fond of all the attacks in movement phase stuff - it's tricksy and has no conflicts within the rules except ones people bring with them.
I was referring to the void mine in general. Could've spelled out a few more things.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14 2011, 23:04

@Tiri Rana wrote:
Yeah, I feared that question, since it is complicated to solve.
Probably not everyone will accept my argumentation, but I think it's viable.

My solution is that no, you don't need to fire weapons at the same target.

The reason why I think this is so, is that the rule, that say you must do so is implemented in the shooting phase section, under point one of the shooting sequence: check line of sight & pick a target. And solely there.
BRB p.15 wrote:
A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not
locked in combat as its target, and may not split its fire
among different targets.
If you use a weapon in your movement phase, you're not required to pick a target, in this way.
Additionally there is a paragraph in under assault phase that says:
BRB p.33 wrote:

In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the
Shooting phase can only assault the unit that it shot at

So this only counts for weapons fired in the shooting phase, not in the movement phase and tanks, that tank shocked, don't need to fire at their target, too.
BRB p.68 wrote:

If the tank moved slowly enough during the tank shock
attack, it may fire as normal in the Shooting phase.


So a unit that uses a weapon during it's movement phase, may still pick a target in it's shooting phase, as described there and obviously must fire all it's weapons fired in the shooting phase at the same target and it may only assault the unit it fired at in the shooting phase.


I know, that there are other possible interpretations and that there is no sentence in the rules that tells us explicitely what to do.
Maybe this will be FAQed, but I doubt it.

While I agree the Mine can be used on a target other than what you shoot at in the shooting phase, I don't think the rules you are quoting (the second two anyway) have any bearing on it. The first is relating to assaults and can not be taken in context to any firing situation other than how it relates to later assaults (which the mine doesn't) and in the second it is referring to an attack made as movement, not an attack made while moving.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidmine question   Voidmine question I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 15 2011, 10:58

As I said before I know my argumentation is not perfect, but maybe I should have explained it better.
The two rule paragraphs you quoted have a bearing on the situation, but it's not about direct correlation but rather about implication.

The first sentence just shows that the normal targeting procedure does only entail waepons fired in the shooting phase and no other. So the implication is that you have to choose a target in the shooting phase and only weapons fired in this phase and assaults made need to target this unit. While weapons fired in other phases are not affected.

The second paragraph implies that it's possible to attack someone in the movement phase, following the attack's special rules, be it tank shock or void mine, and follow the normal rules for shooting afterwards.

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