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Thor665
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vazza
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PostSubject: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 16 2014, 03:04

Hi guys,

Here is a list I propose for an upcoming 1200 pt tournament. I think its relatively solid but I am not sure about the incubi. I have never used them in such a small unit and am thinking another scoring unit might be better. WHat are your thoughts? 5man wrack squad? 5man wych? 5man warriors? Scourges? Reavers? Beast pack? At the moment the total point cost is 1198.

The unfortunate thing is I only have until the 25th to submit the list so I wont get much chance to practice the list. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! Thanks guys.

Haemonculus (50pts)

Incubi (131pts)
3x Incubi
Venom
Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon x 2

Kabalite Trueborn (121pts)
3x Trueborn w 2x Splinter Cannon 1 x splinter rifle
Venom
Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon x 2

Kabalite Trueborn (146pts)
3x Trueborn w 3x Blaster
Venom
Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon x 2


Wyches (125pts)
Haywire grenades
Venom
Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon x 2
5x Wych

Wyches (125pts)
Haywire grenades
Venom
Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon x 2
5x Wych

Wyches (125pts)
Haywire grenades
Venom
Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon x 2
5x Wych

Ravager (125pts)
Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Flickerfield, Nightshield

Ravager (125pts)
Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Flickerfield, Nightshield

Ravager (125pts)
Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Flickerfield, Nightshield
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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 16 2014, 03:55

I would drop the haemie and incubi and change one of the wyche squads to something a bit larger in a raider with dissies and put a succubus in with them.

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vazza
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 16 2014, 05:51

I made the change on the list builder but that ends up being a 300pt unit that one well placed flamer or heavy flamer will reduce to cinders...

Quarter of my army in one unit is a little risky.

Why do you suggest this change? How do you think it would benefit me?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 16 2014, 06:09

@vazza wrote:
Haemonculus (50pts)

Incubi (131pts)
3x Incubi
Venom
Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon x 2
This is a bad combo almost regardless (also, i personally think it's too small to even be worth it)
But 3 Incubi who are paying a 50pt tax to get FNP and who lack assault grenades are...y'know, not exactly that scary.

@vazza wrote:
Kabalite Trueborn (121pts)
3x Trueborn w 2x Splinter Cannon 1 x splinter rifle
Venom
Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon x 2

Kabalite Trueborn (146pts)
3x Trueborn w 3x Blaster
Venom
Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon x 2
These are fine.


@vazza wrote:
Wyches (125pts)
Haywire grenades
Venom
Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon x 2
5x Wych
Fine.

@vazza wrote:
Ravager (125pts)
Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Flickerfield, Nightshield
Fine, though actually I don't personally buy into the Nightshield so much now in the era of pre-measure. With a 36" range on your boats about the only thing it really battles is rapid fire and melta. Rapid fire you're pretty safe from with AV 11 anyway - and melta you're not really safe from whether or not they get into melta effect because if they hit they'll likely pen anyway. Just my thoughts.

====================

Okay, so what your list is are a bunch of Wyches hoping to assault and pop vehicles and then you'll shoot Venoms into them with some Ravager support.

My first thought is that you probably ought to make both Trueborn squads into Trueblasters - if your Venoms can't handle the enemy infantry then I fail to see what the extra two s.cannons will do, while conversely having some anti-tank punch to support the Ravagers if the enemy bubble wraps to ward off Wyches or to oppose flyers would be pretty darn useful.

The naked Haem and the Incubi are pretty iffy too.
Naked Haem could easily get paired with Wyches and be handed a Liquifier or something to help deal with infantry.
Or, as the Duck noted, you could take a Succubus for the extra punch.
If you lack the Raider, you could also go with Wracks in a Venom, they would be a decent secondary assault tool, would pair well with the Haem, and would also be Troops for extra objective denied shenanigans.

I would say my core advice would be as follows;
- No Splinterborn - take Blasters
- Do something with the Haem, naked Haem is wasted points.
- Sack the Incubi - Wracks are a fair replacement option.

Hope some of that helps.

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 16 2014, 06:13

At 1200 you should not need lord than 2 ravagers. They are not that great. And i would run them without flickers. Ns can be good sometimes.

In stead of incubi i might suggest taking wracks that go with heamy. Some liguifiers might be great too.

Assuming you can use the old dex so baron with khymerae is a viable option still.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 16 2014, 06:23

@Vasara wrote:
At 1200 you should not need lord than 2 ravagers. They are not that great.
I disagree with this.
You could build a perfectly fine 1200 point list lacking Ravagers, or with anywhere from 1-3 Ravagers.
Ravagers are perfectly good for their points, and are indeed quite affordable for what they provide.

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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 16 2014, 13:42

Wow thanks all so much for the constructive comments.

I will never ever ever not take flickerfields on my ravagers and am a little scared without the nightshields but now the list looks like this

haemy - scissorhand and liquifier in unit of 4 wracks in venom with 2 Splinter cannons

2 x 3 blasterborn in venoms with 2 splinter cannons

3 x 5 wyches with Haywire grenades in venoms with 2x spintercannons

3 ravagers with dark lances and flickerfields

Better?
PS I have 8 points left?
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thesaltedwound
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 16 2014, 14:31

8 points... give one of the trueborn HWG in case of wych disaster? Retrojets on a ravager for some lolstrike?

I hope they let you use the old codex, or you've got a fast reshuffle on your hands Shocked

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 16 2014, 15:03

The venom blade is straight up superior to scissorhands in the current ruleset - they took out the rule that made the scissorhand worth considering. Much to my annoyance... I'd drop them for a v.blade.

That amount of spare points could let you buy an Acothyst w. v.blade for the Wracks or a Hekatrix w. v.blade for one of the Wych squads for a bit of extra oomph.

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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 16 2014, 17:45

I like your first list better actually. I find 3-4 incubi with a haemoc a great combo, splitting the them up and letting the haemoc die to overwatch and the incubi destroy any unit. In a 2k game going against tau I brought 2 squads of 4 incubi and by the end of the game they killed 3 broadsides, tau fire warriors, a squad of crisis suits, and I had 1 squad left still at turn 6. You don't want them going into a terminator th ss squad but against most things the incubi will do fairly well with a 3+ 5 fnp.
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 16 2014, 23:34

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
I like your first list better actually. I find 3-4 incubi with a haemoc a great combo, splitting the them up and letting the haemoc die to overwatch and the incubi destroy any unit. In a 2k game going against tau I brought 2 squads of 4 incubi and by the end of the game they killed 3 broadsides, tau fire warriors, a squad of crisis suits, and I had 1 squad left still at turn 6. You don't want them going into a terminator th ss squad but against most things the incubi will do fairly well with a 3+ 5 fnp.

Thanks for that comment mate.

The only concerns I have are what the other guys mentioned, the lack of assault grenades, I assumed the Incubi with their flash armour and weaponry could afford them but alas, they can not. Haemy doesnt have access to them and I never was a fan of the Splinterborn its just something my cousin has told me is the best thing since sliced bread but I disagree.

If I can find a way to swap the heamy for a succubus with the incubi? she provides assault grenades
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 18 2014, 00:52

Ao right now the list is

Haemy - Liquifier venom blade with
4 wracks (1 arco) with venom blade in venom x2 splintercannons

3 x blasterborn in venom x2 splintercannons
3x blasterborn in venom x2 splintercannons

5x wyches with hayire in venom x2 splintercannons
5x wyches with hayire in venom x2 splintercannons
5x wyches with hayire in venom x2 splintercannons

Ravager DLx3 with FF
Ravager DLx3 with FF
Ravager DLx3 with FF

I think its pretty good
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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 18 2014, 18:17

Yeah it is. For 1200 points lots of people will struggle with the ap 2 and the amount of vehicles (even if its armor 10) you put on the board. The only thing I might change (and this is all a personal opinion) would be to get night shields somehow onto at least the ravagers if not everything. You can get 25 points by making a blasterborn into a splinter cannon squad and drop the haemy venom blade will allow all three ravagers with night shields as well. This allows them to ignore heavy bolters, Assault cannons, first turn missile launchers, melta unless they are within 6" etc etc. If the Haemy gets into combat he's in trouble he should just stay in the venom and flame stuff and will give the opponent a struggle.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 18 2014, 19:16

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
Yeah it is. For 1200 points lots of people will struggle with the ap 2 and the amount of vehicles (even if its armor 10) you put on the board. The only thing I might change (and this is all a personal opinion) would be to get night shields somehow onto at least the ravagers if not everything. You can get 25 points by making a blasterborn into a splinter cannon squad and drop the haemy venom blade will allow all three ravagers with night shields as well. This allows them to ignore heavy bolters, Assault cannons, first turn missile launchers, melta unless they are within 6" etc etc. If the Haemy gets into combat he's in trouble he should just stay in the venom and flame stuff and will give the opponent a struggle.  
As a proponent earlier of the Blasterborn, here are my counters to these thoughts for consideration.

I think "ignore" is a pretty bold statement about the above weapons, here are specific thoughts;

Assault Cannons - with 24" range, generally speaking as long as you stay on the outside of your range, yes, you can "ignore" these. That said...with a 24" (30" with the 6" movement most Assault Cannon equipped units can manage)...so can a Ravager/Raider *without* Nightsheilds.

Heavy Bolters - with a 36" range it is better to note that 'you can mostly feel safe from Heavy Bolters carried by infantry'. Anything on a vehicle will probably still be able to fire at you just fine unless the enemy has a poor skill of moving units, or you have poor skill of pressing the attack. Yes, Heavy Weapon Teams or Tac/Dev squads packing h.bolters though will not be as big of a threat. I will admit I don't see either of those chosen that often, so make your own value call there.

First Turn Missile Launchers - my reply to his is kind of a "whut?" Because...y'know, the missile launcher has a 48" range, so even minus 6 that's 42" In almost all deployments in the game, your back board edge is 36" from your opponent's front line - that means he can shoot you with missiles even if he deploys those missiles back up to 6"...and actually a bit more than that as the Raider is still a few inches across, so call it back 8" and that's presuming you're deploying on your board back edge...which isn't a good place to deploy in any case nine times out of ten. I'd say deploy with some cover, jink if you must, use FFs if needed, and then kill the missiles. I don't think this is remotely a valid benefit of nightsheilds.

Melta forced to be within 6" - I can agree with this, it's fairly nice. That said, most melta delivery comes via drop pod or Landspeeder anyway, so they can probably swing that if they want. Second off, our vehicles generally have more to fear from bolters and plasma guns than melta in my opinion, melta just tends to be the icing on the cake as they glance us to death with massed bolter fire. Also, if the entire argument of this stance is that you can "ignore" stuff with a 36-24 inch range...why can't a regular Ravager "ignore" melta, which has even less range?

Mostly I'm grumping about the word "ignore" I agree. That said, I see the only real benefits to be versus infantry h.bolters and, to some extent, melta weaponry. It also has some benefits versus rapid fire - which is what I think is actually the biggest benefit.


Second off (uf'da!) the Haem question. While in a very general sense I agree that Haems are not optimal in combat and are better served in flaming things - I will note that for a very affordable 5 points, your Haem and Wracks now have Furious Charge in the assault (which they won't if the Haem stays behind) and also that a Str 4 2+ poison equipped unit is not exactly a total pushover in assault either. He'll have 4 attacks on the charge, will generally hit 2 and wound 2. That won't intimidate actual combat HQs, but even squad upgrade characters will have to consider their armor save odds on that one. I think if you choose to get the unit out of the boat, the smart move is the Haem goes with. I don't think you'll have a better use for the five points elsewhere barring a major re-working of the list.

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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 18 2014, 20:20

@vazza wrote:
Ao right now the list is

Haemy - Liquifier venom blade with
4 wracks (1 arco) with venom blade in venom x2 splintercannons

3 x blasterborn in venom x2 splintercannons
3x blasterborn in venom x2 splintercannons

5x wyches with hayire in venom x2 splintercannons
5x wyches with hayire in venom x2 splintercannons
5x wyches with hayire in venom x2 splintercannons

Ravager DLx3 with FF
Ravager DLx3 with FF
Ravager DLx3 with FF

I think its pretty good

I agree with Thor above, and generally think the list looks good at this point. However, if my math is correct, you still have 8 points left available. One alternate option for that 8 points is to give your Haemonculus a power axe instead of a venom blade. Since they don't have grenades, the unwieldy aspect of the axe won't matter too often, and you'll be able to attack with S6 on the charge, and have a decent AP. With S6/S5 attacks, you'll often be wounding on 2+ just the same, except that you'll be ignoring armor.
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 18 2014, 23:06

Thanks again all for your suggestions Smile

I will be testing this list out hopefully tonight and saturday ill get back to you guys with results!

By the way in the tournament FAQ nightshields only reduce the overall distance of weapons by 6 inches so rapid fire range is only 3" shorter.

Points cost is 1197 as is. BetrayTheWorld did you add the venom blade on the acothyst?

I cant find the option to give my haemy a power weapon of any kind though.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 19 2014, 04:55

@vazza wrote:
By the way in the tournament FAQ nightshields only reduce the overall distance of weapons by 6 inches so rapid fire range is only 3" shorter.
That is what it will always be, because rapid fire is half range of total range.

@vazza wrote:
I cant find the option to give my haemy a power weapon of any kind though.
Page 85 of the codex.
Under Options.
The first bullet point.
Third indentation mark.
That's where the power weapon option is.

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PostSubject: Re: 1200 PT Tournament List   1200 PT Tournament List I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 19 2014, 04:57

@Thor665 wrote:
@vazza wrote:
By the way in the tournament FAQ nightshields only reduce the overall distance of weapons by 6 inches so rapid fire range is only 3" shorter.
That is what it will always be, because rapid fire is half range of total range.

@vazza wrote:
I cant find the option to give my haemy a power weapon of any kind though.
Page 85 of the codex.
Under Options.
The first bullet point.
Third indentation mark.
That's where the power weapon option is.

Embarassed Ty I must be blind!
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