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Shadows Revenge
Kayto_Karite
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Kayto_Karite
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PostSubject: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 11 2011, 18:56

Well am currently experimenting with a 2000pt list for WWP.

Total: 1998

HQ - 170
Haem w\ WWP
85

Haem w\ WWP
85

Elite - 324
Trueborn x 4 w\ Blasters x 4
108

Trueborn x 4 w\ Blasters x 4
108

Trueborn x 4 w\ Blasters x 4
108

Troops - 785
Wychs x 7 w\ HGren Hekatrix w\ Ago, BP
Raider w\ FF
199

Wychs x 7 w\ HGren Hekatrix w\ Ago, BP
Raider w\ FF
199

Wychs x 7 w\ HGren Hekatrix w\ Ago, BP
129

Wychs x 7 w\ HGren Hekatrix w\ Ago, BP
129

Wychs x 7 w\ HGren Hekatrix w\ Ago, BP
129

Fast - 344
Reavers x 6 w\ Blaster x 2 Champion w\ ~
172

Reavers x 6 w\ Blaster x 2 Champion w\ ~
172

Heavy - 375
Ravager w\ FF, NS
125

Ravager w\ FF, NS
125

Ravager w\ FF, NS
125

This is the latest WWP list I been using. So far with the close to 10 games I have played using WWPs I realized one of the greatest faults is AT. This list is alot better now with AT than my previos lists. Im also testing out a 7 man wyche squad with no hydra versus 6 man squad with hydra. I dont have beasts and I dont see myself getting beasts for awhile until I find a cheap method of making beasts. A modfied version of this list will be 2500 list.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 11 2011, 20:05

Since you are doing WWP, why dont you do a full one and drop the Ravagers and go with either Talos or Chronos as replacements. That way you wont lose your AT so early, as they wont have to be on the field till they are close.

I like HL on reavers instead of blasters, but that is just my taste. I feel like we need melta to make sure that tank is dead, but how about trying scourges instead of reavers??? they are cheaper, as you only need 5 for 2 weapons, and sorta have more surivivability with an invul save (I know its not alot, but youd be supprised) I would take a Haywire Blaster if you take scourges, 2 stunlocked tanks is 2 less tanks you have to worried about, and gives your big monsters time to get up close for the kill.

How are the MSU wyches treating you??? to me they just seem like KPs coming out of a portal. A smart player makes a killzone around a portal, so I dont see them reaching a enemy unit before they get shot to pieces, but everyones meta is different. Maybe wracks instead??? As they can take a round or two of shooting before going down, and do decent in combat.

The point of beasts is like what I said in the paragraph above. A smart opponent will creat a 18in bubble around the portals so that nothing can reach them (even with fleet) Thats where beast excell at though, getting in and stopping them from shooting your more valuable units (Pain Engines, wyches, blasterborn) If you dont want to buy the beasts though, maybe helions instead??? They have the same charge potential, and can even come out if the portal is blocked Razz

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 00:03

I don't mind the HQ or elites - a little much on the elites but go for it.

Are the haemys riding with the raider wyches? an odd matchup, I usually will have a squad of wracks that escort the haemy - better durability.

I like you having 5 scoring units but I too would like to see the wyches go to 8 strong in the raiders and 10 strong on foot.

Bikes might need changing because I think you need 6 in order to take 2 blasters. I defintely do not like the champion, failing morale is the least of their problems.

Have you tried the list out?

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 05:32

Yes the haemys are running with the wyches, I tried using wracks, but most of the time they didnt serve much purpose, after the transport blew and the WWP was dropped

I guess I can change the format of my list due to some confusion. The wyches are 7 man strong (wyches x 6, hexatrix x 1) same for the reavers being 6 man strong (reavers x 5, champion x 1).

For the bike squad I spent so many points with them that the 10pts to have 1 extra LD shouldnt hurt. It would be a shame if someone walks them off the table with their 3D6 run.

I havent tried this list per say, the last test i did was with 6 man strong wyches with a hydra and everything else is the same, I'm going to try this list during the weekend. I think the 7 man strong with no hydra might perform better.

Results of the list, So far its been a bad track record. Not really becuase of the list more because of bad rolls. 1 game I couldnt get a anything more than a stunned or a shaken result. Another one I ended up dropping a 10 man squad to a 3 man squad with 6 wyches with a token, and for 3 turns afterward I couldnt kill the last 3 guys and eventually lost combat due to losing 1 model a turn. All my other squads just gave up on hitting or wounding, just whiffed the whole game. So I cant really say anything until I get a game that has decent rolls.

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 23:48

First Batrep ever, and first with this list.

http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t1002-2000pts-wwp-vs-ba-doa

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teknistmajjan
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13 2011, 02:06

Fun list and a nice battle report.

I'l try to write down a few from the upcoming games. I will go with a webway / vehicle mix just to try it out.

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 05:28

I played a game with my friend again with him slightly modifing his list.

Batrep is in the same topic as before.

http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t1002-2000pts-wwp-vs-ba-doa#10119

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 23:58

Read the BatRep and list simultaneously.

Why didn't he combat squad? Why did you put the wyches in the raiders instead of empty and in the portal? Why are there only 7 in each other squad, when you don't have to worry about transport capacity? What do the champions do for the reavers? Do you really need to pay extra for mobility on reavers when scourges can go 12 out of the portal for cheaper? Why do your Ravagers need BOTH upgrades?

Your answers to these questions will determine my advice. I hate telling other people what I would bring in THEIR list without knowing what their intent and favorite units are.

EDIT: is more wyches the best thing to get the wwp into midfield with the haemonculus?

The trueborn are interesting, not sure I'm sold on them popping out of the portal, but your batrep convinced me they might work.


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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17 2011, 01:25

PreacherOfDeath wrote:
You can easily embark the haemonculi turn 1 into the empty FF raiders, and keep the Wyches in the portal.
Though I will note - if you do this you're not allowed to get the Haems out of the Raiders on Turn 1 - which is probably a dangerous idea with WWP, I wouldn't recommend it.
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17 2011, 02:16

right, double checked that. thanks
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17 2011, 03:05

I dont know why he didnt do combat squads.

The haemy cant start in the raider solo, which I need him to come out and drop the WWP before turn 2.

My points are spread out through out the army, only letting me get only 7 models, even if I drop the champion and 1 of the upgrades on both ravagers, thats just 40pts, for each wyche model I need 12pts (wyche + H. gren).

I prefer reavers, better toughness, better mobility, once you learn how to abuse the 6in assault move to run away, it becomes hard to change. I can shoot from 12-18in away and move back to be 16-24in away, and most things cant assault up to 24in. Also, I can jump out of cover shoot and run back in. If worse comes to worse I can also turbo 36in to contest, or shift sides. The Champion might be an upgrade I'm willing to get rid of, but I have yet to figure out what to do with the 20pts.

For my Ravagers, I believe the FF is a must, the NS so far is just their, it has proven its worth though, so far In the games with my friend it has stopped him from using his meltas, or prevented him from using the 2d6 and him failing to do anything due to rolling less than a 3.

The blasterborn has been a big help, over alot of testing I realized that WWP has a lack of AT the blasterborn, ravagers, and reavers fill that spot and fill it well. I also gave the wyches a BP so they can possibly stun or immbolize a vehicle and charge it for auto hit grenades.

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17 2011, 04:14

Thanks, this helps.

his minimal troops would go a long way with judicious combat squads. my favorite BA list runs 3 troops, which become 5 with combat squads. If you like this opponent, let them know. If you're really a Dark Eldar... wait until you start beating them regularly. ;D

Agreed on the haemonculus. I forgot for a second that you can only go from table-inside a vehicle or the other way once per turn. sorry!

7 wyches is a bad number, you gain no benefits (aside from another wych) by going up from 6.

If you're in the portal, and not a vehicle, why not combine and run bigger squads? sure, 7+7 can be in more places than 14, but 14 will actually do something, wherever you are. 15 and you get 3 razorflails/hydra/shardnet, and that's awesome!

7 haywires won't do jack to a vehicle. assume it's motionless/stunned/immobilized. You hit with everything. 1/6 of the time nothing happens, so thats 5 and 5/6 left. 1.16 pens, ok, but only 1/3 will do further damage, so that's 7/18 of a dead vehicle. The glances will just stun it further, ok, that can be good. But now you have 7 wyches in the open, bad trade!

let's try 15. 2.5 are duds. of the 2.5 pens, that's 4/5 of a dead tank. The 10 glances might inflict death through immobilize and multiple weapon destroyed. So, we pretty much guarantee a dead tank.

But if you combine the wych squads to get 2 15-woman squads, you may not need to put so many points into grenades. What if the WWP deployment squads were also anti tank squads?

Consider:

lose reaver champs, 805 points to spend on troops

5 Warriors 190
Blaster
Blast Pistol Sybarite
Raider

5 Warriors 190
Blaster
Blast Pistol Sybarite
Raider

15 Wyches 210
Hekatrix, Agoniser
3 wych weapons, your choice

15 Wyches 210
Hekatrix, Agoniser
3 wych weapons, your choice

So, we're 5 points under budget, and we have two wych hordes coming out of webway portals deployed by haemonculi in with the tank hunter warriors. We lost 5 wyches, but we gain their effectivness back, and more. Not feeling the wych weapons? Same points to swap out for your favorite Haywires.

I find the FF is good for vehicles that can't rely on cover saves - otherwise, cover saves are better and free. NS is great for things that sit back. Try tucking your Ravagers in cover, they've got 3 feet of range. Or go with what works. Either way, dropping one gives you 35 points for...

Liquifier/venom blade and shattershard/venomblade on the haemonculi. Now they do something useful afterwards, and are worth keeping alive!
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17 2011, 05:21

I get what your saying with the wyches squad in making them bigger. I might try and test 1 squad being so big. The only problem I see is that 15 wyches is a huge foot print coming out of a WWP. Also, the meta at the time is MSU, and a 15 blob squad will kill anything it see's. Yeah having FNP might help, but wyches are T3, meaning anything STR6+ ignores FNP anyway.

I do refuse losing the reaver squads completely. If I do fight a equally mobile army, I can easily have my WWPs blocked off. Forcing my wyches to come in from table edge. My reavers can still fly over and do some damage, maybe clearing a path for the next turn. Other than gunboats, the reavers are the 2nd most mobile shooting platform in the dex. After testing scourges, unless your in cover during your shooting phase they pretty much will die. The reavers can be out of cover to shoot, then move into cover. They can also move away from a squad they just finished shooting at to avoid a revenge assault. I will be willing to remove the champion though, will continue testing his worth in future games.

I still try to keep the haemy cheap, reason being is I have learned to let the haemy run solo to drop the WWP. I either leave the escort squad in the raider with the token, or make them disembark with the token on the opposite side of the raider, if they are in assault range. So most of the time he will die, and if he lives, well thats one less KP for my opponent then.

I have tried both warriors and wracks as escorts. They just don't prove useful once the WWP is dropped. The wyches though can assault anything they see if needed, or stay alive if they get assaulted.

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17 2011, 15:02

NO! Don't get rid of the reavers! I like the reavers! Reavers good!

I thought you agreed the champions were wasteful?

Well, what about MSU?

That huge squad kills 3.33 marines a turn with no wych weapons on the charge. They have 4+ invulns and after a kill or a portal carrier hiding in cover hands them a pain token, FNP.

Is this not enough kills for you? Chainflails/Gauntlets. Pick one, take 3 of it, you have the points.

Is this enough to down a combat squad in their assault phase? Yes. that's what you want, right?

So you can:
a. Severely limit their attacks back, and make assault terminators cry with 3 shardnets.
b. take off the wych weapons, add in haywire grenades. Now you can charge and kill vehicles.

Does S6+ ignore FNP? Sure. it forces morale tests faster on 7 wyches too.

If you have 8/15 wyches in cover, the squad gets cover. You can still reach out and touch someone.

Saying warriors and wracks aren't proving useful once the portal is dropped, is saying that they're not useful, period. How is cracking open tanks for the wyches bad?
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17 2011, 16:04

Ok misread what you were saying about reavers.

I do agree ATT the champion is a point sink that can go somewhere else, but before I drop him I'm going to play couple more games. If I do remove both champions, thats only 20pts I get back.

If you dont count CD or you get a roll of 1 or 6 the wyches are 3.33. The CD results 4 out of the 6 will increase to 4.36 - 4.5 dead MEQs. Also, you need to get 8 wyches into cover with a 15 man squad which is a bit harder. I want to kill squads during the assault, but my squads are made to kill on my opponents turn. Thatlets me get a free move on their turn, reduce being fired at, and maybe even get another charge. If I make my squads to killy they are highly likely to kill on my turn, letting me get shot, assaulted or my opponent can run away preventing me from charging on my turn. Also, my squads are made to hold people in place, a 7 man squad can easily keep a 10man squad busy the whole game, I have 5 squads letting me hold a couple squads in combat, and have my remain troops to claim or assist.

Im not worried about terminators, if someone brings a huge amount of termies, that means less vehichles for me to shoot at, so all those STR 8 AP2 will wreck termies including pallys cause their 2 wounds dont matter when it comes to ID.

Wyches getting shot is bad no matter the size of the squad, I rather have 5 troop choices, than 2 troops choices that are getting shot at. It's easier to shoot 2 squads to death than 5 squads to death.

Warrios can only blow up a vehichle or attempt to shoot a squad.
Wracks cant destroy vehichles, but they can assault, they fail against PWs.
Wyches can destroy tanks both in the shooting and assault phase, they are great in assault, and they can handle PWs.

Warriors have their purposes, thats being in gunboats.
Wracks are objective holders.

Whatever is in the raider with a WWP is going on a suicide mission, and if they manage to survive, I need them to be useful.

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17 2011, 18:13

ONLY blow up a vehicle? Wracks can survive shooting well. They won't assault the wracks if wyches are assaulting them.

A suicide mission? Like dropping off the haemonculus and staying inside to guard the portal, or dropping wracks off to hold a nearby objective?

"Warriors have their purposes, thats being in gunboats.
Wracks are objective holders."

Good, so don't suicide 60 points of troop.

And check - your squads do kill the enemy on your opponent's turn - 2 full turns later. Wouldn't you rather kill the enemy on their turn... in half the time?

I don't need to kill 5 squads of 7 - just shoot them below half and make them run.
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17 2011, 19:54

Well your suggestion for a warrior squad proves they are only worth blowing up vehichles, a 5man warrior squad cant hold an objective, cant compete in combat, and if they fail with their shooting they can't assault a vehichle to do a difference.

Wracks can survive shooting to a point, all they have going for them is a free pain token and t4. Wyches with a pain token are almost as survivable. But wyches in combat can surive shooting and combat. A wrack in combat can survive but only against squads that cant ignore armor. Wyches has that ability to assault anything they see cause they can survive with a ++4 against anything (except astorath, him forcing you to reroll inv saves is crazy)

Also, no point in guarding a the WWP with a raider, you cant depend on raiders to survive past turn 2. Usually I drop the naked haemy off to use the WWP after that, he is expendable (you might not agree with that, but he served his purpose, thats why he remains naked). The wyches either move around with the raider to get into assault if the raider survives for 1 turn, or maybe even jump out seperate from the haemy and assault anything thats close buy.



Im confused in your context about killing on opponents turn, 2 turns later, or next turn. All I'm saying is I have a better chance on killing my opponent on his turn, than on mine with a 7 man, either against MSU or a full 10 man MEQ. A 15 man squad no matter what math hammer says can kill a MSU easily, and I refuse to take that chance. Also, I respect math hammer, but I take the results with a grain of salt. Also, looking back into math hammer. Right now the 7 man squad is only 129, a 15 man squad with HG no wyche weapons and the hekatrix in the same load out is 225pts, I dont see 96pts worth the 1.33 extra that a 7 man squad provides.

Wyches goal is to get them into assault, if i feel they cant get into assault I will make them come in from the table edge away from the shooting, or into cover. Also, from what I have seen my shooting is quite as a effective, spamming STR8 AP2 shots can easily handle MEQ and TEQ.

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt WWP   2000pt WWP I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 18 2011, 05:22

ONLY was capitalized to show incredulity. As if blowing up a tank is some pedestrian and mundane feat for Dark Eldar. If only!

Think a little bit outside the box - obviously parking something on a spot and leaving it there isn't guarding. But, if your raider moves around the portal, attacking vehicles, you can guard it by keeping them away. IRL, guarding something by sitting on it only works if you are fat/super strong and wearing body armor. Not the best plan, and surprisingly bad in-game too.

Hunkering down and shooting back works better too. That's why wracks can do neat stuff like liquifier guns, and going to ground for T4, 3+ cover, FNP. If they assault the wracks on the objective within range of your portal (you DID place it in a good spot, right?) you jump out and punish them.

Darn astorath, forcing you to re-roll saves! Who does he think he is, the librarian with null zone every SM player takes? 4++ isn't that amazing. Yes, permanent carapace armor is nice when you're eating power weapons to the face - but it's still carapace armor.

I agree completely about the Haemonculus... so maybe he could at least give his token to someone who could benefit from it. I think I several times mentioned handing it off to a big 15-wych squad.

Well, there's 2 player turns to a game turn. 7 wyches will statistically kill a combat squad in 4 player turns, or 2 game turns. Even player turns to kill a squad mean on your opponent's turn. So we agree, you kill them on your opponent's turn, the turn after you charge.

15 wyches (withOUT razorflails or gauntlets) will statistically kill a combat squad in 2 player tunrs, or 1 game turn. So, on your opponent's turn, also - but in half the time.

An example:


Assuming no wyches die.

Your turn: 7 wyches charge 5 marines. 2 marines die.
Enemy turn: Remaining wyches kill a marine.
Your turn: Remaining wyches kill a marine.
Enemy turn: Remaining wyches kill a marine.

Assuming 3 or less wyches die:

Your turn: 15 wyches charge 5 marines. 3-4 marines die.
Enemy turn: Remaining wyches kill 1-2 marines.

So you lose less wyches, you get the squad back sooner, and you don't have to pray that none of your wyches die. If you lose 2 or more wyches of the 7-squad, it ends on YOUR turn, 5 player turns after combat begins. NOT GOOD.

Mathhammer is useful because it predicts average situations. Exceptions and flukes are totally uninteresting, except for coffee talk. If you want the rule, look to the median, not to the extreme.

7 wyches generate 22 attacks. Yes, it's easier for the 15-squad to go horribly wrong and kill 5 marines in one go, because more dice are rolled. It's still highly improbable, and totally demoralizing anyway. And if you lose because of it? Man, that's a funny story! What are the odds of that? Literally.

Don't believe me? Fine. Roll out both squad's attacks, against a combat squad with a power fist. Do this 5-10 times. Yes, it will take awhile, but it requires no knowledge of statistics, probability, or long division. Just dot-counting.

You have what, 25 shots a turn, 16 at 18" or less away? No tanks or MCs to worry about, just marines and terminators? (TEQ, like this is a serious concern that one regularly encounters)
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