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 Fighting the new Space Wolf

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kourac31
Kabalite Warrior
kourac31

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PostSubject: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 27 2014, 20:08

Hi I had a game last week against a full thunder wolf list. very mobile for maelstrom games and tought enougth to sustained damages.

Between the TW calvalry equipped with shield (3++) T5 and 2 wounds each, character with armor 2+ on TW, rune priests on TW and fenrisian wolves and the grey hunter on pod, I get laminated in 3 turns.

I 've make some mistakes not measuring enought to be sure of the distance to be out of charge for some unit and the new rule to dispatch over wound from the challenge it was a hard time for the beast pack with baron (they fled over board).

For them at least the CC is not dead.

Did any of you have face this kind of list yet .
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Korwey
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 27 2014, 23:14

Sounds much like ork nobz on bikes list that kicked my ass in the last tournament. I can only say from my experience that beastpack without eldar magic can't do anything but sucking one or two turns of shooting in competitive environment Sad I'd also be glad to hear any tips against bikestars.
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TheMonkfish3000
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 27 2014, 23:27

Not really a proper answer, but the Shattershard can do some nasty damage if you can fit enough of their bases under the template. Problem is they're T5 so only 1/6 will fail on average...

Implosion Missiles?
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Painjunky
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 28 2014, 22:39

Stay mobile, run and gun.
Move away and torrent the most threatening unit that turn to death with mass splinter.
Use MSU squads as speedbumps when needed to buy yourself time.
Good luck mate.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 28 2014, 23:32

I faced SW several times, but without TWC. However I would try the following - assault armies benefit when you present them a chargeable target away - they get bonus movement for the charge and possible consolidation. Present them with a raider in their face and kabalites just behind. That will slow them down for some time. Dont get them the opportunity for disordered charge. Funnel them with your vehicles somewhere where they cant do any harm or just prevent their movement. Make them charge what YOU want, not what they want. Give them units so small that they will kill them in their turn and leave them open to your fire. Serve them right under their noses to limit the bonus movement or to bait them away. You can also just feed this unit the scraps and bits and ignore it and concentrate on getting and denying objectives.
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@miral
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@miral

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 29 2014, 09:43

Funny thing, I just made that experience yesterday. First time against space wolves ever! I made some major mistakes though, so it really should not be that bad.
I played against two allied players, wolves and allied ultras, 1500 pts combined. They had a stormshield dread in a drop-pod, thunderwolves, the Bear-rider with eight or nine attacks on strength 7+ which is just awsome and three razorbacks with tacticals and termis. And additional two units of long fangs with rocket launchers. Those were devestating, they intercepted my razorwing and instantly killed it.

What i did wrong: I thought I can take points on two flanks by dividing my army. I moved a raider and a venom out of cover where they only had low priority targets (as it turned out), let his thunderwolves charge before being able to shoot them, I tried to poison tacticals off ojectives in ruins and believed that seven wyches would kill of the dreadnought eventually.
The thing is: the dread with 3+ invul lasts very long against wyches and I could not poison off the wolves that charged into that very combat.
What I probably should have done: keep everything together, poison the wolves, SHOOT the damn dread and try to get ruin-cover for that turn for all cars to hide from the longfangs.
That would have taken a turn and gave them the lead with objectives but thats how it is.

I still lack of experience in games above 1000 pts, but that was something I learned. Hopefully. Also, I wanted to bring a lot of assault stuff and had not only wyches and inccubi but also wracks. I think I drop those, take more trueborns with splinter and position some warriors in cover outside their transports. I think you need empty raiders as backup as it is ridicolous but skimmer tend to stick in ruins if you have to move them urgently Sad
Also I will skip the razorwing, too expensive, and try to include a dissie-deep-striking ravager against the devestators and a second unit of khymeras. Those eat tacticals off objectives in a nasty way Smile

Do you have some better ideas how to handle the longfangs? Because those actually worry me most, infinite range if placed right and bringing down a car per unit and turn easily.

I think aurynn and painjunky know what they talk about, that sounds like a "what you should have done"...
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 29 2014, 10:38

@miral

Dividing DE force is usually a bad idea. We live on focusing on one thing and doing it. Leave the well protected targets alone and use your mobility to get away. Wasting HWG on a 3++ dread is... well a waste. Just ignore him.

Example (not an universal truth)
Try to plan like this: This turn I need to kill those devastators and open a Rhino. Fire at the Rhino first and if you open it, fire all poison you got on devastators/longfangs/etc. If you can make the kill, make sure that the Pain Token goes where you want it by properly choosing units firing order. Any remaining posion into the unit that got out of the Rhino. Do not be shy to use Focus Fire to maximize your damage output. Get my point? Its lots of rules to swallow and use properly. But this is not a beginners army.

Few points of advice:

I wouldnt use many assault units in a DE army. 1-2 maximum if you dont plan on spamming Grots. We are not an assault army. Our assault units are mostly counterchargers or threat. We are shooting army more than anything else. I myself use 1 incubi unit and 1 wych unit to put pressure on enemy backfield.

DSing Dissie Ravager is not a good idea IMHO. Dissies are only better against MEQ if they are not in cover. Thats the beauty of Venom and other poison shots. They dont care a bit about cover, coz they allow the 3+ armour anyway. Load up on Splinter cannons (venoms, splinterborn, scourges) and clear those devs off the board, starting T1 and not hoping that your ravager comes T2 AND does not scatter AND can fit in the terrain AND that the terrain will not provide cover from where he ends up.

Razorwing is in no way expensive. 4 S6 large blasts with BS4 are nothing to smirk at even for MEQ... And you have 2 lances that you can prolly get to shoot at the rear armour easily. Did the Devs intercept your RWF? Well they wont be shooting at anything else this turn would they? :-) And to be honest, you should be able remove 5 MEQ models in 1 turn... in poison shooting it translates to: 5 unsaved wounds = 15 wounds = 30 hits = 45 shots. With 12 shots per Venom, 30 shots per 10 scourges and 20 twin-linked shots from Raider warriors with Splinter Racks, its easy.

I tried playing with Khymerae, but if it is the only footslogging thing you have, you are just giving his bolters (or other anti-infantry things like blasts, etc.) something to fire on, so I removed them.
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@miral
Kabalite Warrior
@miral

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 29 2014, 11:29

@aurynn wrote:
@miral
Did the Devs intercept your RWF? Well they wont be shooting at anything else this turn would they? :-)

Yep I forgot about that. We had to stop the game after that turn because the store was closing already. I think he would not have done that if the game continued Smile

Thanks for the good advice! My list is not that far off of your build actually. But I have to get more practise Smile
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 29 2014, 11:41

@@miral wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
@miral
Did the Devs intercept your RWF? Well they wont be shooting at anything else this turn would they? :-)  

Yep I forgot about that. We had to stop the game after that turn because the store was closing already. I think he would not have done that if the game continued Smile

Thanks for the good advice! My list is not that far off of your build actually. But I have to get more practise Smile

By the way, how did they get Interceptor? I don't think Long Fangs have that rule.

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@miral
Kabalite Warrior
@miral

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 29 2014, 11:49

He told me it's a 10 points upgrade that goes along with the skyfire rule. Maybe he was wrong, but he knew all other rules really well and was very experienced over all.

- just checked via online codex: there is a missile upgrade for 10 points per model. Thats got to be it!
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 29 2014, 11:52

@@miral wrote:
He told me it's a 10 points upgrade that goes along with the skyfire rule. Maybe he was wrong, but he knew all other rules really well and was very experienced over all.

- just checked via online codex: there is a missile upgrade for 10 points per model. Thats got to be it!

Flakk missiles give Skyfire but not Interceptor.

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Fighting the new Space Wolf YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
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@miral
Kabalite Warrior
@miral

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 29 2014, 12:25

Great news, thanks for looking that up! So that was probably a mistake he made. Did not change much in that game though.
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ecam
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 29 2014, 19:21

@kourac31 wrote:
Hi I had a game last week against a full thunder wolf list. very mobile for maelstrom games and tought enougth to sustained damages.

Between the TW calvalry equipped with shield (3++) T5 and 2 wounds each, character with armor 2+ on TW, rune priests on TW and fenrisian wolves and the grey hunter on pod, I get laminated in 3 turns.

I 've make some mistakes not measuring enought to be sure of the distance to be out of charge for some unit and the new rule to dispatch over wound from the challenge it was a hard time for the beast pack with baron (they fled over board).

For them at least the CC is not dead.

Did any of you have face this kind of list yet .
A ruine priest cant take a thunder wolf mount what was the rest of his list as i have the codex and can dubble chech it for you
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ecam
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 29 2014, 19:28

@@miral wrote:
Funny thing, I just made that experience yesterday. First time against space wolves ever! I made some major mistakes though, so it really should not be that bad.
I played against two allied players, wolves and allied ultras, 1500 pts combined. They had a stormshield dread in a drop-pod, thunderwolves, the Bear-rider with eight or nine attacks on strength 7+ which is just awsome and three razorbacks with tacticals and termis. And additional two units of long fangs with rocket launchers. Those were devestating, they intercepted my razorwing and instantly killed it.

What i did wrong: I thought I can take points on two flanks by dividing my army. I moved a raider and a venom out of cover where they only had low priority targets (as it turned out), let his thunderwolves charge before being able to shoot them, I tried to poison tacticals off ojectives in ruins and believed that seven wyches would kill of the dreadnought eventually.
The thing is: the dread with 3+ invul lasts very long against wyches and I could not poison off the wolves that charged into that very combat.
What I probably should have done: keep everything together, poison the wolves, SHOOT the damn dread and try to get ruin-cover for that turn for all cars to hide from the longfangs.
That would have taken a turn and gave them the lead with objectives but thats how it is.

I still lack of experience in games above 1000 pts, but that was something I learned. Hopefully. Also, I wanted to bring a lot of assault stuff and had not only wyches and inccubi but also wracks. I think I drop those, take more trueborns with splinter and position some warriors in cover outside their transports. I think you need empty raiders as backup as it is ridicolous but skimmer tend to stick in ruins if you have to move them urgently Sad
Also I will skip the razorwing, too expensive, and try to include a dissie-deep-striking ravager against the devestators and a second unit of khymeras. Those eat tacticals off objectives in a nasty way Smile

Do you have some better ideas how to handle the longfangs? Because those actually worry me most, infinite range if placed right and bringing down a car per unit and turn easily.

I think aurynn and painjunky know what they talk about, that sounds like a "what you should have done"...
Not sure who the bear lord is but nothing in the codex gets 8 or 9 atacks. Termanators cant take a razorback as a trasnport they can only go in a landrader or a stormwolf as a transport. As for the dread yes it dose get a 3++ but only on its front armor
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kourac31
Kabalite Warrior
kourac31

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 29 2014, 22:38

@ecam wrote:
@kourac31 wrote:
Hi I had a game last week against a full thunder wolf list. very mobile for maelstrom games and tought enougth to sustained damages.

Between the TW calvalry equipped with shield (3++) T5 and 2 wounds each, character with armor 2+ on TW, rune priests on TW and fenrisian wolves and the grey hunter on pod, I get laminated in 3 turns.

I 've make some mistakes not measuring enought to be sure of the distance to be out of charge for some unit and the new rule to dispatch over wound from the challenge it was a hard time for the beast pack with baron (they fled over board).

For them at least the CC is not dead.

Did any of you have face this kind of list yet .
A ruine priest cant take a thunder wolf mount what was the rest of his list as i have the codex and can dubble chech it for you

Hi,

In fact he has a special arm force linked to a special TW HQ character so I can only take 1 troop. The other character were the SW techmarine (may be I mistaked it with the rune priest) and another lord on TW. All is elite model were cavalry, the wolf as beast and the grey hunter unit on drop pod
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@miral
Kabalite Warrior
@miral

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 30 2014, 09:40

@ecam wrote:


Not sure who the bear lord is but nothing in the codex gets 8 or 9 atacks.
The bear-rider got an optional CC weapon which gives him + attacks and +strength if he is outnumbered. 35 points the player said, but I don't know the name of that model.

@ecam wrote:

Termanators cant take a razorback as a trasnport they can only go in a landrader or a stormwolf as a transport.
Yep, the termis were on foot and therefore did nothing. The Razorbacks were bought for tactical and maybe longfangs? There were 2 squads of tacitcals but three Razorbacks, one ultramarine and two SW.

@ecam wrote:

As for the dread yes it dose get a 3++ but only on its front armor
Good to know! So flying around is helpful. Does not work in CC i guess?
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 30 2014, 10:31

no, Walker uses his front armour in CC always
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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting the new Space Wolf   Fighting the new Space Wolf I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 08 2014, 23:58

The plus for us going against thunder wolves is that a squad of 3 fully upgraded can cost 240 ish points. So for 6 wounds each wound you cause cost him 40 points. If you focus fire on those thunder wolf squads you can kill 1/3 of his army in a turn or 2. I played against a similar army and I focused on the missile launcher squads turn one and then focused a on a squad or 2 a turn and if the game went on I would have tabled him. For the dread try to get to his flank to shoot at him if he is a range threat (I think the shield can only be used for front arc).
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