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 DE Deep Strike Tactica

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Tropheus
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PostSubject: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 10 2011, 18:32

Deep Strike Tactica
One of the most maligned forms of the DE army. Most people seem to think it’s a waste of time, jump on Warseer sometime and bring it up, prepare to get jumped on by the mindless adherents of the “Dark Eldar do not Deep Strike” mantra. These are the same drones who mindlessly spout that only fire knife battlesuits are good for Tau, usually led by some guy named Kirby. Well myself and several others greatly disagree and I decided to write this brief tactica to perhaps open the eyes of some naysayers or people who are looking to think outside the box.

What are the dark eldar? In my opinion they are very fast with deadly firepower and no real armor. Speed is our ally, it protects our vulnerable vehicles and bikes thus protecting the squishy troops and weapons in them. So what is better than speed to make sure our guys don’t get hit until they fire? Don’t be there in the first place(a common saying for people in martial arts as well).
Notes: I add a section after each entry with “My Use:” This is what I do personally in my tourney lists. Also note that I do differentiate between tourney lists and friendly game lists. I am relatively set in my ways on 2k and below tourney lists but will toss in and pull out stuff for fun games, for example, I won’t run as many troop squads and will bump up the numbers of guys in the ones I do run for friendly games.

WORDS OF WARNING: This is my take on things. It works, I have used it to great effect and so have others. Don’t waste your breath saying it wont work. It has been proven in practice otherwise. It is not the only way to play DE, hell, my way is not the only way to play this list even, but it does work. Also, do not try this at 1k or less. I have tried it and it does not work. Too few units and you end up with the situation the naysayers always use as the reason it will never work.

Benefits:
--No one expects it. No really, I have had numerous opponents deploy like they are facing a normal boat-borne DE list. Also had new players and players who do not play very often face it and then play a normal DE player and get stomped assuming that all DE armies play the same. I now add a caveat to any newer player that my army is unlike any others in the store they will play against.

--In your face. The army is designed to be an in your face army out of the blue. Almost everything starts in reserve and all of a sudden there is an entire army bristling with AT weapons opening fire on the parking lot. Several armies play this way, Tau(or at least the way I play them), BA, drop pod armies so why are we different? We have numbers. Our forces are fairly cheap. In 2k for a tourney list I easily field all my troops, elite, and heavy slots, all in transports(except the heavy). So you play a space marine army they get 6 or seven drop pods, I get 9 DSers and 3 reserves, which upon landing turns into 21 different targets I can shoot at and things for the opponent to shoot at as the guys in the transports get out.

--Variety in deployment. You do not have to deep strike. Sometimes is advantageous not to for many reasons. I always go second if I have a choice in the matter. I want my opponent to deploy first so I can see what’s in store. I also always allow my opponent to read the Duke’s rules before the game. Part of the pysch warfare we can play on the opponent. I had a GK player read the rules and then castle up in a corner with a long line of their anti-DS troops covering the entire corner. He told me later he fully expected me to DS and fight a close range fight. So I started with my 3 fighters on the board outside of his psyfleman range and straight reserved everything else and fought and won a long range sniper battle. He conceded turn 3.

--Redundancy. So your 5 man warrior squad and its raider wiffed and didn’t do squat. No big deal, you have 5 more of those and 3 blaster born squads who can do the job. Against a typical IG list parking lot you should ideally be in range of multiple targets with most of your various squads. Something will die. If it doesn’t, buy new dice.(I have done this and it worked. True believer in lucky and unlucky dice)

Negatives:

--Lack of troop variety. Well we use many of the staples of the DE. Blasterborn play a large role as they do in pretty much every other list out there. The only real difference is mine are in a Raider, I value the Dark Lance more than 2 splinter cannons. We also min/max a bunch of troops which isn’t too popular for friendly games.

--Suicide. Most of the first wave will likely die unless you have a really good turn and really good reserves rolls(relative to your goal). You only have 4 or 5 man teams and paper thin transports. Accept they are going to die. Think of it as sending in your less trustworthy troops in first to cull your forces. Hopefully the second wave will come in and clean the clock on anything that is left. We have a lot of troops, we can afford the losses, especially if they have done their jobs.

--Randomness. OK, here is where most people have issue with DSing DE and there is no true defense to fudge the numbers. Even worse if the opponent is fielding something that screws with our reserves rolls(Officer of the Fleet). We don’t get an autarch(why can’t we kidnap one?), or an astropath(same question). The only way I have found of getting around this is bring a ton of units. Assuming nothing is messing with our rolls, you are bringing 50% of your force on during the second turn and most of the rest on the third turn. Obviously a real game doesn’t go by averages in this small of a number of rolls. I have played a game where no reserves at all came in on the second turn, and another game where almost everything did. It happens. In combo with this is the second part of randomness. Where to land? I recommend as does everyone else without guidance systems is 7” from any enemy unit. There is a very small chance you will deviate into a single unit like this. Also you can place the stand and then rotate the vehicle to keep as far as possible for you guys to disembark. I base everything on the stand and no one has told me I am playing it wrong.

Force Selection:

Duke Sliscus: Perhaps one of the most useful utility characters in the book. He isn’t too expensive, not bad on the stat line and buffs a bunch of stuff. In every tactica I have read utilizing him, they always say pick the power you want to emphasize be it poison, the combat drugs, or deep striking. Usually DSing is the lowest priority but obviously in this list, it is #1. Sure you could use retrofire jets, but by doing this you are effectively cutting your firepower in half as the guys inside cant fire or disembark. He gives his squad bonuses to the poison too. Also a neat bonus, I don’t use it very often in my game play. Combat drugs are useless for me unless I get the FNP roll. To be honest, I often forget to roll for his combat drugs.
My use: I run him in a warrior squad obviously. Typically to quasi take advantage of his poison bonus I will put any leftover points into extra bodies for this squad. I direct this squad at the most dangerous vehicle on the board when it comes out. I have a blaster, the duke’s blaster pistol, and the syberite’s blaster pistol in this squad so chances are I am going to hit and do something.

Trueborn: The staple anti-armor unit of most DE lists. There are a bunch of tacticas out there detailing these guys. 4 trueborn, 4 blasters and a raider for 168 points, pretty cut and dry. I field raiders for them so I get the extra DL.

Warriors: The required part of the list. Cheap, good BS, poison weapons and can be bought in groups of 5, more please. Field them with a raider.
My use: I field mine in 5 man groups with a blaster and a Syberite with a blaster pistol. Everyone says to drop the Syberite. I disagree. With a raider this unit has three AT weapons capable at firing at two targets. It isn’t too hard and unlikely for the blaster pistol to be in range. Once again, when I pick a target, I want it dead or ineffective(preferably dead). I believe in overkill.

Razorwing Fighters: The Duke DS army lacks anti-infantry elsewhere in the list. Here is where that is made up. Straight monoscythe missiles and whatever weapon you wish. There is a lot of comparison between these fighters and Ravagers, and I side with the fighters. 4 strength 6 pie plates will hurt anything regardless of not having an AP value. I have nuked termies(in the above example) and together with the Dissies I inflicted 27 wounds from one fighter in a single volley. Even termies are going to roll ones sometime. Try that with a ravager.
My use: I field all three slots with these guys with a Flickerfield as standard. I am undecided with Night Shields but since I keep them at range anyway I will keep them on the planes. I currently use two with Dissies and one with Dark Lances and upgrade the two Dissie ones with Splinter Cannons. Depending on the opponent I will reserve or deploy them. Its very situational. I will get more into this later

Ravager: People swear by them. Not a fan myself. It usually has as big a bullseye as a Razorwing and will likely survive as long, however, the Razor has a much more devastating alpha strike. I don’t use the making up the points fallacy but a RW does this easily while a ravager with Dissies struggles. With all the AT in the elite and troop sections, why bother with DLs? Again, list dependent, they do not add anything to the DS list that the RWs do not do better.
My use: I don’t.

These above units are what I consider to be the absolute core of a Duke DS army. You need redundancy thus the limited selection and large numbers of them. It is a completely shooting army. I do not want to go into hand to hand and any unit that gets there I pretty much write off. I also can care less about objectives, my goal is to force a concession or wipe them off the board.

I am sure that people can use other units. Some people might not be comfortable with the lack of hand to hand and can sub a unit or two of Wyches for troops. Hey whatever floats your boat. I don’t think it would be very effective the way I play the list but if you have a way it does work in practice(not just on paper), please feel free to contribute.

Tactics:
Ok, we have discussed what I feel are the effective units for this list and how I use them, now to explain overall tactics on deployment on specific opponents.
Deployment: This is perhaps the biggest point of contention. I think it is completely dependent on the opponent and how they do things. I always try to push for 2nd turn. I want to see how they are deploying and get the last turn. Odds are I am reserving everything anyway at a minimum. It all depends on who and what the opponent is.

Basic ideas against a generic opponent that I would use(not set in stone):

Mech Marines(non-DP): This is the classic list the army is designed to stop. DS and reserve everything. Hope your razorwings come on third turn giving the rest of the force a chance to pop transports and heavy vehicles on the second.
Marines Drop Pod: Reserve everything. He just wasted half his drop pods and if you get second turn, another half of what he has left. I actually would DS just the blasterborn and regular reserve everything else. The blasterborn go after dreads and other big targets that absolutely need to die quickly.
Marines Jump pack BA: Reserve everything, I wouldn’t bother DSing anything unless they are fielding tanks in addition and then just the blasterborn.
GK: There are a lot of combos they can play. Look for Storm Squads, they have a truly brutal DS defense. Thankfully this list has very small numbers in relation to ours. Stay at range and don’t DS unless you have to. Every guy you kill will hurt them.
IG Mech: Here is the real tough one for the list. Not because they are hard to stop, but because there are so many important targets to prioritize. Transports each with 10 guys inside isn’t bad in of itself but its almost a waste of the missile volleys for our razorwings because they typically have more than 3 of them. Air mech is just as annoying however, most players don’t have more than 3 or 4 flyers and our lances drop them too. Unlike BA and GK, they cant improve the 4+ save.
IG and ork Horde: I don’t see them very often. Our razorwings can brutalize them regardless of their save. Reserve everything except possibly the RW. Concentrate shooting on mobs. Despite the presence of the RW I still think the list is handicapped against horde lists.
Necrons: Ignore the monoliths as we can barely scratch it. Instakill everything you can, we have the weapons for it. Phase them out. I think I would actually start everything on the board and try for first turn.
Tau: I would reserve and DS everything. As a Tau player I would do the same. Go for second turn.
DE: Fun fight and is very dependant. I would try for 2nd turn and DS everything.
Nids: You should start everything on the board and shoot! Don’t bunch up, keep them running in circles. Pop shooty ones first and just stay moving. Splinter weapons are great vs nids, and our AT weapons ignore their armor save. Unfortunately aside from warriors and a few others, we cant really ID anything.

Now what is target priority? The first wave needs to hit transports. They need to be popped so the fighters can fire their missile volley at the guys that come out. After that big nasty stuff that will hurt you. Never miss a chance to lance a land raider, that’s a lot of enemy points taken down. Dreads are another key unit that will hurt you if you allow them to live. At this point its hard to say what needs to go. Stuff that can reach out and touch you like artillery should be fairly high priority. Hydras should be knocked out quickly as their autocannons are especially deadly to us. Just use your common sense is what I am saying.

To kill stuff it’s pretty easy, figure out what is coming on the board and start crunching the numbers and prioritizing. Like I said above somewhere, put yourself 7” from the enemy to reduce the amount of mishaps. Even if you do mishap, you only have a one in three chance of going away. Everything we have is mounted and can haul butt somewhere to be useful or shoot from 36” if the opponent gets to place our stuff. Place your flying stand and position the vehicle. It’s actually more accurate than positioning it measuring from the vehicle anyway. Put the nose towards the enemy and hopefully you are within 6” for your pistols to come into play. With the ranges on your weapons, you should not have issue being able to hit multiple targets if the infantry does kill the vehicle(yes, I assume vehicles). For this reason I tend to fire from the infantry first and then clean up with the vehicles.

Stuff will die, a lot. You will lose a lot of troops and doubtfully will win a KP contest, for example, my 2500 list has 25ish KP. The goal is to hit with such shock and awe to keep the opponent scrambling to defend against you. Don’t worry about objectives. In fact place objectives in the open if you have the choice, preferably on your side forcing them to come to you but denying cover at the same time. Also has the added benefit at the end of the game on non-KP missions if you haven’t wiped the board you can get transports over to them quickly to contest or capture without worrying about terrain checks.

I have not experimented yet with complementary forces yet above the 2k level. I think Reaver Jet Bikes would be a nice fast addition to further cause chaos in their lines. Scourges obviously have synergy being deep strikers as well with the versatility of being either AT or AI at a fairly cheap point cost. Cant see where Hellions would fit in. They aren’t super good in Close combat, and the DS list does not have a lot of support for them. Now I suppose having them in several large groups might be advantageous. Fast attack is the only place I see any leeway for bringing extra stuff aside from a single HQ slot.
This is obviously not a list for everyone. Take from it what you will. Hopefully I have clarified some info on it and I will add to it at a later date with some more insights. I had more I was going to say, but I kinda forgot it at lunch, oh well, coffee wearing off I guess. Feel free to add to this with suggestions and comments.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 10 2011, 18:52

Interesting and worthwhile argument for the powers of DS and reserve in DE lists, it speaks to me somewhat since I do run a shooty Kabal. I do feel as though you're glossing over some of the problems inherent in the strategy. A few questions;

1. How do you deal, with say, castled up Necrons? Is it all down to the Razorwings manage hail Mary bombs between the triple towers, or what?

2. Do you have any batreps of your DS list in action? I'd love to see it versus some various lists and get an idea for how it does in a tournament setting (and also to get a feel for your tournament setting).

3. I'm actually surprised that Vulkan lists don't give you any issues - you certainly didn't list them. Have you faced combat squaded Vulkan lists, and how did that go?

4. I'm not surprised that horde Orks and Nids give your list issues. But I'm happy to see you actually using the Razorwings to their optimal usage.

5. How often do you table an opponent with your list? (Curious on the KP question, basically)

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 10 2011, 19:12

I'm curious about how you feel when the opponent begins by rushing and spreading out over more than half of the battle field.
Going second against IG or marines heavy on troops could leave you with very little room left.
Has this ever happened to you?

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 10 2011, 19:16

1. I havent fought castled necrons. I dont even know if they exist in my area. In the two games I have played against them they went poof pretty easy.

2. I have a couple bat reps up including the GK one I reference. Veldrith has a very similar army to my own, in fact his was the inspiration for my version of it, but he seems to have vanished. I do a few things differently. Here is a link to his Batreps: http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t394-battle-report-flgs-tournament-may-21.

3. I have never fought a Vulkan list even in their heyday. They had the brief fad when that codex came out and I havent seen one since. We kind of guilted the players since it seemed like everyone and their mothers had one of a different color. I am not really sure why they would be harder than a normal marine army. Flamers hurt regardless and meltas without the reroll hurt pretty bad. If anything I far more fear jump pack armies which are more common.

4. <3 Razorwings heheh. I use one in combat patrol and it is nasty, almost too nasty.

5. Since i have been playing it, I have not not tabled or forced a concession. Granted the GK guy didnt play very smart. The IG guy last time I played it in total conceded as well around turn 5. Tabled a nidzilla list with three of the Trygons. I actually had to make the friendly version because i had people complaining. I play much smaller games far more often than 1500+ ones unfortunately and the lower you go, the less effective it is.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 10 2011, 19:25

Honestly it hasnt happened Speedfreak. The IG I have played have counted on their outflanking and then hammering me onto their armor anvil, which failed. Nids pushed forward but I only DS'd a couple units to take out priority bad guys staying in . GK castled relying on their anti-DS storm guys, which I did chose to ignore and only DSd a few guys, well outside the 12" range.

This is when misdirection works well if they expect you to DS everything and plan accordingly, and you dont do what they expect. HUGE benefit of the Duke and going second. You an generally discern what the opponent plans on doing. Never give them a straight up fight.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 11 2011, 04:17

@Tropheus wrote:
This is when misdirection works well if they expect you to DS everything and plan accordingly, and you dont do what they expect. HUGE benefit of the Duke and going second. You an generally discern what the opponent plans on doing. Never give them a straight up fight.

I'll drink to that. I once tabled my local Tau nemesis (so called because he has this annoying gift with figuring out my plans and working out counters for them in short order, which is where most of my current losses and draws came from) because he assumed that I was going to Deep Strike my entire force, when I had simply reserved everything (It was Dawn of War, so it simply made sense). Here's the report...

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 11 2011, 19:41

Great read, and I agree that Kirby can be a douche.
My question is, do you have some wych cult units in that list or just cabal part in DS??

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 11 2011, 20:56

Just cabal, except reaver jet bikes in my ard boyz list.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 06:26

Actually tried this basic strategy in an 1850 game tonight vs. Blood Angels.

--------------
The good
--------------

My initial thoughts is that the initial strike is pretty devastating, and I was almost giggling in glee to have blast pistols be useful.

I have always been a fan of Razorwings, and it was nice to manage some impressive wound totals (I averaged into 25+ hits pretty easy with all three of my initial strikes with the Razorwings. Against Blood Angels it was still tough going with 5+ covers inherent, 3+ armor, and FNP on top of it - I could dent squads but wasn't devastating squads. That said, it was easy to see the damage potential vs. hordes in full display. There is probably a smart balance with Dissies/Lances here - maybe just using a Venom or two instead of Dissie Razors, or maybe trying your mixed method. Some experimentation ought to hit my balance happier.

I've always been a fan of Sliscus too - though this was a different use for him, he worked out okay but it felt unnatural to be running around without some dakkaborn with him - I'll need to toy with how I want to use his unit. He did end up being popped from a Raider and charged by a Librarian, Sarge w. Fist, and Sanguinary Priest, and neatly sawed them apart in solo combat...though that lumbering beast of a Dreadnaught sort of squished me shortly thereafter...but I always play Sliscus pretty aggressive and in the opponent's face Wink

I got some very nice play out of Scourges in this list - they paired nicely, and didn't feel out of place like they do with my Raider Rush force.

I actually felt like the initial hit was, in some ways, more devastating that what my Raider Rush army does! This surprised me, but it was true. I also definitely had some horror from my opponent at the raw number of targets arrayed in front of him. I actually managed a mishap with the Scourges (I got ballsy with them and scattered off table via an 11) and he didn't drop them in terrain or into a position his boys could get at the, - he lobbed them into the far corner from the action because he said 'there are just too many targets, I can't deal with them right now' which, or an MSU and target saturation lover like me was music to the ears.

On Turn 3+ I did have an aggressive strategy of getting back inside the vehicles and basically starting to play the list like a regular Raider Rush gunboat build - curious to know how you handle your Turn 3+ placement of men. Over half my army was meched up by the end, of course I've always been a gunboat lover.

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The bad
--------------

My biggest shock was that I ran out of time.
I am very use to tabling my opponents with my Raider Rush list, and not to degrade my opponent who is an awesome guy and can model and paint fifty times better than I could ever hope to, but I do think that if I'd dropped my full tourney list on him I would have been kicking around his charred remains by turn 4 or so.

Instead we fought till turn 5 and I managed a win in the Capture and Control mission 1-0, which though a perfectly fine win was also almost a little shocking and shameful to me on an emotional level.

It did do better than the best WWP list I've yet managed to come up with - which is awesome, though not totally a great endorsement (since I suspect Kwi is better at WWP than me, and he says he still hasn't figured out a way to make it work yet either)

I was also painfully aware of the KP situation - with the Rush list I'll sweep the table - with this list I could be caught with my pants down for a loss via KPs (as the KP discrepency between my opponent and I was pretty shameful in his favor)

I think the biggest concern that pops into my head is what something like GK or Space Wolves might do to us - my gut feel for how the army played has those twigging as the worst things for us.

I actually think this list would do very well versus competitive IG, and look forward to trying that out.

--------------
Conclusions
--------------

I am very excited by this build. I think it is competitive, and probably edges in shockingly close to Wyche Cult in how competitive it can be. I'll need to do more tweaking and testing, but this is coming from someone who always said reserve was a fool's game for DE - this list actually makes reserve work for us.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 20:57

Wow thanks for this great write up. I was planning to use Duke Sliscus myself but had orignally written off his DS ability as useless, with no small quanity of help for the rest of the internet mind. This thread has certinally changed my mind, and I'am now going to be including an all DS list. I'll be using Ravangers rather than Razorwings however, but that is mainly because my list packs a fair bit more anti infrantry than yours. IIRC (just getting back into 40k so forgive me Razz ) a vehicle that DS's counts as moving at cruising speed so the abilty to DS down and unleash 3 DL's just seems to good to pass up for just 105pts + upgrades. By the way what upgrades do you have on your vehicles, I'm persuming either NS's or FF's.


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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 22:30

I throw NSs and FFs on my Razorwings as they are my most expensive things already and least expendable, plus they usually stay in the backfield as much as possible so it becomes worth it. I add no upgrades on anything that Deep Strikes, its all considered expendable and why waste the points.

Think you can only fire one DL when you DS a ravager since I think fast vehicles can only fire one non-defensive weapon at 6"-12" move. I have tried ravagers before I had the RWs, I dont recommend DSing them. Simply bring them on as reserves, that way they are exactly where you need them and can fire all 3 weapons.
RWs have a special rule that allows them to fire all of their weapons while moving up to 12" btw.

Glad you found it helpful. This method of playing gave me a way of playing that matches my style of game with all my other armies(Tau, Elysian, Terminator heavy marines, eldar) lol. I think this is the most lethal of all of them however. Not even my Elysians can match the firepower and I have 8 aircraft in that list. I wanted to do DE but couldnt find a niche I was happy with until I came across this.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 12 2011, 22:39

Thanks for the reply, Ravangers also have the move 12" and fire all weapons rule that you speak off which why I was a bit bewillered as why you had written them off. Even a DSing Dissie Ravanger would be brutal on rear armour Wink, never mind a Ravanger with 3 DL Dsing behind enemy lines if needed. Your probally right however, DSing would probally put your main AT output at too much risk for it to be worth it.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 13 2011, 13:13

Quote :
Think you can only fire one DL when you DS a ravager since I think fast vehicles can only fire one non-defensive weapon at 6"-12" move.
Arieal assault rule make them fire 3dl afther DS.

Duke is worthy HQ since you dont have spend 5pt on every raider/venom/ravager to DS. Im not a fan of using specials to ofthen but he is sooooo cool I dont mind.

You can always DS your ravager futher away, with 36" range its ok to DS them in second line.
In that kind of list I would go with FF since you might DS them in open to get clear shot.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14 2011, 02:50

Wow, ard boyz is over. I will go into real bat reps Mon but here are observations and highlights.
-Never having used bikes I went in with over 400 points of them, ouch. I definately could tell I didnt know how to effectively use them. I dont think they are bad, but I know I was not using them effectively and could definately use them better.
-I am thinking 2500 is too high for this style list.

Game one- Against IG KP mission. This guy won the tourney and massacred me, he won the tourney by alot. He had 2 vendettas, 2 command squads in chimeras, a 30 man blob with a commissar and command squad in a chimera, 4 or 5 melta vet squads in chimeras, 2 hydras, some autocannon squads, 2 manticores, and a psychic battle squad. I got about half my squad in on the second turn, beautiful hits on every scatter dice. I fired up a chimera with my first shots and inflicted 8 wounds on the squad inside, he saved 6 of them. I hit with almost everything and pen'd almost everything. He made every frikken save. I fired two RWs off at his blob in the woods and killed 13. It just went downhill. I have never seen saves like this guy made. I was hitting and penning left and right, just couldnt do anything. Just an example at the end, my duke, a bike squad with two heat lances, my venom warrior squad and all their transports couldnt kill at point blank on the side of a chimera holding the traitor. I dont think my tactics were off except with the bikes, my rolls werent bad, but his were straight up over the top. End of game I had a single 5 man warrior squad left, I had destroyed a manticore, a chimera, a CCS with the officer of the fleet, and an autocannon squad.

Game Two Vs Marines- I won this one with a minor victory. Had its ups and downs with luck like when I tried to dislodge a rhino and tac squad in the center of the board and I fired 3 darklances, 2 blasters, and 4 heat lances to finally destroy it, in the open. My list was brutal overall though and pressed as much as I could. He ended up with his commander on foot, a immobilized and weapon destroyed rhino, a tac squad on an objective in the middle of no where and two drop pods left. He did say he would never play against that kind of list again. He didnt like the fact there was so much shooting. I think it was the first time he played against Razorwings too. Everyone keeps claiming they are too overpowered.

Game Three- Necrons This was a brutal game and very bloody. He only had 2 monoliths and the night bringer, 40 warriors, a lord, 10 destroyers in 2 squads, and flayers. I ended up losing by a single WBB roll. If he would have failed it, I would have won. I couldnt touch the monoliths obviously, the most I could inflict was glances on them. By the end of the game he was down to 4 destroyers and 2 warriors and the lord plus the two monos and the nightbringer. Not being able to even scratch his biggest vehicles and guy was sheer useful points denial. in retrospect I should have simple swept a flank and stormed him in force but you live and learn I guess.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14 2011, 05:47

For the record, Troph, when going with bigger point lists I have found Scourges to be an awesome addition to the list - as they help fill a couple of blocks that bikes would fail at.

1. Scourges can DS - so they arrive in the same way as the rest of the list and participate in the intention of a "beta strike" mech beatdown.

2. Scourges can take Haywire Blasters, and Blast Pistols - again, this plays into the shooty anti-mech power of the force, also the Haywire Blasters fill a giant hole in the list, by allowing you to actually case solid and reliable damage to something like a Monolith.

3. Scourges are...reasonably affordable, allowing you to keep up the fire and forget nature of the army.

4. After mech goes down they are still (in a squad of 5) generating 9 assault poison shots at 18" range after a 12" move, so they can aid in the hunting down of random pockets of infantry resistance.


I'm not sure what you see in the Bikes for the list - if you feel off in the strategy of them maybe you're not sure, but if you have thoughts as to how you think they should be helping I'd love to see them so we can compare and contrast the two choices for the list.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14 2011, 14:02

Using bikes is hard but they can do wonders.
As for the IG guy, I have played some simmilar list but on 1.8k and since then I will claim IG is broken and no brain army. All he did was roling dices... Evil or Very Mad

Waiting for reports Wink

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14 2011, 16:41

Thanks for the report, I will look forward to the full batreps. As for the IG game that is one of reasons I will never use flickerfields, I always seem to find my oppents will make saves all day long but I'll never make a single one I need to make.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 22:11

Really neat. Sorry about the ard boyz loss. I'm surprised you're tabling opponents regularly, does your local metagame have lots of DOA, stealers, and daemons? Against a good opponent, it's hard to table armies with big units or more than 5 vehicles. I'm guessing your BA opponent uses Dante?

One of the nice things about deep striking with Duke is that while landing in your opponent's grill is nice, it's not the only option. Daemons are better at it with Invulns across the board and poor shooting, but Deep Striking is also a good tool to get places quickly where normal movement struggles, like corners and the other side of LOS blocking terrain.

I have to disagree, vehemently with your assessment of unit choices, both in the lack of options and the lack of anti-armor troop.

With Duke, Raiders, Venoms, and Ravagers gain Deep Strike. Limiting yourself to these vehicles, and Scourges, who already have it, isn't so bad - really, all that's cut out is units over 10 strong, beasts, hellions, harlequins, MCs, and the jets. Not so much. But what else works really well?

Trueborn - 4 blasters is a lot better when you're actively trying to get in your opponent's face. But, don't underestimate the potential of putting them in a Venom if you don't have armor concerns. And Dark lances can't shoot the turn you drop down, but 3 trueborn with 2 dark lances in a venom Deep Strike into the corners of your foe's deployment, promising unobstructed rear shots at their vehicles next turn unless they go out of their way to bring down a vehicle that's hit on 4s with at least a 5+ save. That's more than (the points for 3 haemonculi) worth of wasted time and shooting for each Sniper Trueborn venom.

Ravagers - Really good for the same reasons. Don't limit yourself to deep-striking in your opponent's range. Also, Disintegrators can be really useful if you really need to thin hordes. So we lost 2 str from our Plasma Cannons, but 3 shots beats the blast any day.

Wyches and Wracks, Grotesques, Incubi, and Bloodbrides - Sure, you can't assault after deep striking. But if your assault troops disembark the following turn, they can move upt to 8.99 inches with disembark and normal 6" move, and your vehicle can still move and shoot something else.

Mandrakes - don't deep strike, yes. But, if they infiltrate, they can set up a foothold to finish off something the deep striking Venoms have weakened for an easy FNP and Balefire, and bring the fight to your enemy's door faster.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 22:38

I'm pretty sure the OP is down with Trueborn - he includes them in his list.

You're spot on that there are some alternate build possibilities with Ravagers instead of Razorwings. I've been toying around with a few that have Ravagers and some Venoms mixed in and am liking the results. I'm not sure if I've figured out which is "best" yet - I'd love to ehar any opinions if you run some lists.

OP was neutral on Scourges (he went bikes) I'm the one who pulled Scourges in - they work excellently.

I'm not sure about assault elements. I mean, yeah, you can do it, but you don't get to assault till Turn 3 at the earliest and you give the enemy at least one round of shooting at the transports. I don't see a big win there as compared to regular deployment which can allow Wyches to pretty much assault anywhere on the board by Turn 2 and give them a flat out save.

Also, don't forget, if you leave them in their vehicles after DS, they can take advantage of 12" of movement from the vehicle, plus disembark, plus run, plus assault.

I'm not sure about Mandrakes...but I really hate Mandrakes so I'm biased Wink

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 22:48

Trueborn are so versatile, and shouldn't be limited to one config, particularly when OP was concerned about anti-infantry originally, and then ran low on Anti-Tank.

I liked your treatment of scourges, no need to mention them further.

Assault is hard, and you can't depend on it as much as usual, but by Turn 3 you've likely made significant progress de-meching your opponent as well, letting something tough like coven dudes and incubi jump out from a transport explosion and clean up some vets/combat squads.

Absolutely, I mentioned the 8.99" you get in the movement phase from a parked vehicle. Assault makes that 14.99", and fleet adds another 1-6", and this is from wherever the vehicle landed!

Mandrakes... they're can be a pain sometimes. I've had my best luck running them around the same sizes as wyches (7-9), without the nightfiend. Infiltrating them makes them a serious PITA for your opponent, and if they're still alive (and haven't gotten one yet), you can deep strike a haemonculus in for a pain token house call.

I'm thinking of a Deep Strike list... I'll post it in the army list section for critic.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 10 2011, 03:16

Just posted up a batrep featuring multiple games (mostly against Razorspam) using a personal modified version of the basic list idea (I wanted more defense on vehicles and didn't think the Duke benefited particularly as an assault/anti-infantry option with the extra mooks in his squad.

http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t1443-2000-rtt-duke-sliscus-deep-strike-razorwing-build-very-pic-heavy

If any of you would like to see the list in action, with pics, it's worth looking at. I'd love to hear any thoughts on the core tactic and how you still see it working/not working.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 21:16

Can't believe i missed this! Been putting the idea around for some time now but wasn't sure how effective it would be.

Has anyone tried out this style of play with some assault units yet?

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 23 2011, 22:03

I don't think so - assault out of Deep Strike with really weak and fragile units seems like a bad idea though.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 13 2012, 17:55

Interestingly enough the new so called 6th edition rules benefit this list. Havent played it in awhile but have been keeping up. This is all conjucture assuming the "leaked" info is real and not a hoax and I am not posting the link to it as that stuff gets banned quickly. You are on here so you are internet savvy enough to use the web so find it yourself.

Reading the FAQ first off I was horribly distraught thinking they have nerfed the Duke. Well lo and behold I read further into the rules itself. The Orbital Strike by the FAQ if true BTW simply gives all raiders, venoms and ravager Retrofire Jets. This means guys inside cant get out due to the text of retrofire jets. Oh no, there goes half our firepower.

But thankfully, DS has changed. Now guys on board a fast transport that moved at cruising speed get to fire one weapon to a max of 18". Whats our blaster range? Hmm

Landing close enough to use the pistols however is pretty ballsy. Now anything that DSs in and is within 1" dies. Note that is individual models, not the whole unit. There is some kind of defensive fire as well, but as fast skimmers with jink we are harder to hit as well.

So I think in 6th this will be a more viable tactic and overall I think the DE just got more lethal in general. Even coming off reserves you have the option of not rolling, putting everything together in one or more strike forces, and everything comes in turn 4 automatically anyway.

So in a nutshell for this style list
-Reserves are less random
-Do not have to leave the safety of our skimmers to fire the blasters
-Skimmers are harder to hit

Win win for DE.
Note- this is assuming the "leaked" rules are at all accurate.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deep Strike Tactica   DE Deep Strike Tactica I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 01 2012, 08:17

I've been putting together a DS DE list for quite a while, trying to figure out the best tweaks as I model the units. I knew that scourges and Razorwings would be good for this kind of list so I bought quite a few of those as well as a bunch of corsair cloaks to make trueborn with.

I haven't played 40k since my craftworld Eldar in 4th edition, so I'm still getting used to 5th as well as shifting my tactics towards DE.

One thing that confuses me a bit is why people in this thread seem to think that hellions are out. I've read that the Duke and the Baron have some good synergy and that hellions should only be used as troops. Since they are jumppack infantry, they can deepstrike just like scourges, right? As long as they aren't taking up fast attack slots, couldn't they be useful?

Another thing I can't sort out is the heavy weapons on my scourges. When should you take haywire blasters? What are heat lances good for?

One tactic I've been aiming for with DS that hasnt been discussed here is multi purpose utility, which I learned about from Dash on Warseer (pretty much the only guy on Warseer that promotes DS). Though most of the time units should be aimed at AT or AI but never both, DS gives incentive to multitasking as it enhances unit redundancy that helps to counter the randomizing that DS causes. I.E. DL'S on Razorwings and Blasterborn in venoms. It makes sense and Dash reports great success with it, what experience or thoughts do you guys have with that?

If I'm packing as many DL'S on Razorwings, Scourges, and Trueborn squads as is possible, do I really need to put 5 man squads in Raiders for the extra DL shot? I do infinitely favor the look of the raider, but venoms make a lot of sense to carry 5 Blasterborn.

I'm hesitant to put my Poisonborn and the Duke in a Venom because that leaves his little pistol being the only darklight shot, but that means less splinter cannons and makes me want to fill up the rest of the Raider with 5 more Poisonborn. Is that a terrible idea? Putting 5 dudes in a 10 man gunboat feels wrong for some reason. I do love raiders, though. Do you guys prefer the Duke in a Venom or a Raider? And can someone explain the benefit of the 4-5 man raider squad? Is it just for more MSU, or more about the DL?

And a question for the OP, what about DS DE versus Craftworld Eldar? You didn't mention them. Or are the tactics basically the same as fighting other DE? Anyone else have experience fighting CE?

Sorry for the massive post and slew of questions! I've been lurking for a while and finally have enough questions that I haven't seen answers to.
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