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 WWP, Can it be done?

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GreySeerZ
Hellion
GreySeerZ

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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 18:25

@xzandrate wrote:
As for a competitive list, it's a fine edge to be a competitive list, as opposed to a flexible list. Yes you can be competitive, but you can't plan for the player who isn't competitive. 9 carnifexes isn't competitive so you don't plan for it, but it could show up just the same.

Yes, I guess that is what I was looking for. Its impossible to be competitive against every list. A flexible list works best, however, even they have weaknesses, heck, even specific armies have weaknesses vs. others. In the end you want to be able to do well against the most common builds, because those are the most likely to show up. Of course that doesn't mean you'll end up facing your nemesis, in which case you need to hope that your army is rounded enough to face it.

@xzandrate wrote:
As far as the overall WWP discussion, you could run a full on WWP list but may run into some hang ups. Alot of the large WWP units have a big footprint, so if you get alot of them come during one turn, you may prevent yourself from coming from the portal. Of course there is the possibility that you come in piecemeal, or in an ineffective order(gettingthe wyches in first before the talos to pop the transport leaves them with nothing to assault).

I think the large footprint is pretty negotiable if certain units are taken. Yes, piling out 60 wyches in one turn will be difficult, however, taking hellions, reavers and scourges allows you to fly over units, or move far enough away, to allow a unit to deploy behind it. There is always the possibility that it will force you to deploy somewhere you may not want to, but diversifying the movement range of units exiting the portal gives you more options.

The piecemeal aspect is a curse of all full/close to full reserve lists (well ones that can't purchase increased arrival chances, autaurchs, fleet, etc.).

@xzandrate wrote:
Through various games, I've basically come to the conclusion that you need about 1/3rd of your army on the table to start. This gives you enough to prepare for the things coming out of the portal, and usually also enough for the opponent to worry about that the portal carrier is a secondary priority.

Just curious but what do you start on the table? units in vehicles? units on foot? etc? I could see some units that could operate on the board from start. I am still hesitant that vehicle based units would be able to do so. If you lose roll for first turn, there is a good chance that not only are your WWP tranpsorts getting shot down (which is a challenge for any WWP list) but that you are also losing the transports/tanks for your other units/firepower. 1 full turn of 33% of an army vs. 100% of another is just dangerous vs. some opponents. I would rather risk less, 10% of my army, and hope for better arrivals later turns, but like i said, I'm curious as to what you start on the field?
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xzandrate
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 21:16

A normal list for me consists of

2 Haemies
5 incubi in raider(sometimes 4 in venom)
2 sets of 10 wracks
2 sets of 10 wyches, 1 in a raider
10 warriors
Beast pack 3 masters, 5 Kymera, 4 razorwings
ravager
talos
cronos (sometimes a second talos)

I'll start the 2 raiders, the ravager and the warriors on the board. Sometimes in a dawn of war deployment one squad of wracks will hit the table.

Usually I can move the Incubi forward with both portal carriers, disembark incubi out the front run and try to assault, 1 carrier out the side, leave the other in the raider. Wyches can move forward and disembark/assault as needed. With the warriors and ravager providing cover fire/AT as well as the raiders.
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Ceddyn
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 21:41

@GreySeerZ wrote:

Really it comes down to whether or not you really want wyches coming out of your WWP. Are wyches great, YES, they are freaking awesome. Honestly one of the best troop choices in the game. With 4+ invulnerable and 4+ FnP I have seen them survive some of the nastiest things thrown at them, even with no special weapons. Add to this the fact that they are no slouches in combat either (puting out 3 poison attacks on the charge, re-rolling to wound with 2 pain tokens (which I've found them getting pretty consistantly) or rolling +1 to S for combat drugs, which is AMAZING for wyches vs. SMs.

I'll agree that wyches are a great troop choice. I'm afraid they don't have poisoned attacks in close combat though. Their close combat related wargear are a ccw and a splinter pistol. A pistol just counts as a normal ccw and the codex does not change this.

If you want poisoned attacks you'll have to use wracks.
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GreySeerZ
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 20 2011, 04:20

@Ceddyn wrote:
I'll agree that wyches are a great troop choice. I'm afraid they don't have poisoned attacks in close combat though. Their close combat related wargear are a ccw and a splinter pistol. A pistol just counts as a normal ccw and the codex does not change this.

If you want poisoned attacks you'll have to use wracks.

Ah, yea, I meant through upgrades like venom blades, hydra gauntlets and while not poisoned, the agonizer is basically a poisoned power weapon. i guess I was just trying to get across that they are not slouches in combat as well.

I have considered using wracks for a close combat unit as well, but they definitely need 2 pain tokens in order to reach their full potential (St 4 Poison) and only have a 6+ save in combat. Both are very good, as they cost the same amount of points, have tons of different weapon loadouts, and are killers in combat. I have to say that I am very happy with the new codex, there are so many decent units in it.
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 22 2011, 17:07

@GreySeerZ wrote:
I have considered using wracks for a close combat unit as well, but they definitely need 2 pain tokens in order to reach their full potential (St 4 Poison) and only have a 6+ save in combat.

I would have no problem putting a squad of wracks into a squad of marines but it would be preferable that the wracks do the charging. A full 10 wrack squad with 2 liquifiers on a raider would be ideal and have had great results with this combination. Ideally getting the 2 liquifier shots before the charge is half the equation so the raider is kinda mandatory. I have had foot slogging wracks come out of a portal and have gotten them into the fray on the turn they arrive but I would much rather have them on the raider as that is their mobility and their refuge. “Death-by-armor-save” is their credo and I have had one squad kill off a 5 man terminator squad 2 out of 2 times as an example – just the shear amount of armor saves from poison attacks will do it. Of course, their inability to really do anything against armor is frustrating so that is the sole reason I do not just run all wracks as troops (I now split the troops 50/50 amongst wyches and wracks).

Don’t discount the wracks but do not totally rely on them either.
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Hologram
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 28 2011, 22:48

A worry I always have running a WWP list is the chance of getting the second turn. Obviously the Baron mitigates this a bit, but in my few dabblings with the WWP I've never really had a backup plan if I get turn 2 and there isn't much LoS blocking terrain available (or, even worse, they've got drop pods). While the ideal scenario is obviously to get the first turn (and I've been quite lucky so far with this), what is the general plan B for when this does not happen? As I said, I'm pretty inexperienced in the whole WWP thing so far, but I too love it as a concept and would like to see it work.

I suppose one answer to this is having the second portal deployed conservatively using Harlequins (if we forget about drop pods for a moment), but then that seems to be like a fairly large blow to the mobility of the list, when there are likely to be things like the Talos which want to have something in claw's reach when they emerge.
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Fyrepwetty
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 13 2011, 22:10

Versus IG, would it be beneficial to have 2 deepstriking razors instead of 2 talos? Also ith how iffy Baron's 1st time assistance is, would a different 2nd hq help out like Malys with Incubi?
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astorre
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 14 2011, 16:21

@Hologram wrote:
A worry I always have running a WWP list is the chance of getting the second turn. Obviously the Baron mitigates this a bit, but in my few dabblings with the WWP I've never really had a backup plan if I get turn 2 and there isn't much LoS blocking terrain available (or, even worse, they've got drop pods). While the ideal scenario is obviously to get the first turn (and I've been quite lucky so far with this), what is the general plan B for when this does not happen? As I said, I'm pretty inexperienced in the whole WWP thing so far, but I too love it as a concept and would like to see it work.

I suppose one answer to this is having the second portal deployed conservatively using Harlequins (if we forget about drop pods for a moment), but then that seems to be like a fairly large blow to the mobility of the list, when there are likely to be things like the Talos which want to have something in claw's reach when they emerge.

Depends on how you want to drop your portals. I'm currently dropping one on foot conservatively and one in a Raider on my opponent's half of the table. So I'd probably use Hellions with the Baron to drop one portal (so they have Stealth & FNP) and hide the raider behind this unit. Just accept that your Hellions will have to pay to drop them so the rest of your army can come out, but it's not a total loss as your units coming out of the portal can react better to your opponent's moves.
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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 19 2011, 08:09

What I dont understand is why would you keep everything in reserves when running a WWP list. The only thing i keep in reserves; is what comes out of the wwp. Otherwise my deployment revolves around having my raider with wwp crew ravager and venom wih blaster born.

My wwp is 2a hamys with wwp and cc nastiness along with 3the grotesques. Move the raider to the middle of the board get out drop both wwp and if your close enough assault something if not hold the line. Just when deploying the wwps have the grotesques in the middle of the two hamys so your wwps are spread out in the middle.

Also reavers turbo boosting from the portals is orgasmic! Especially when they kill off an entire unit.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 19 2011, 22:42

The reason being is that target denial is the strength of a WWP. We are so lightly armored, that having a few things on the field at the start of the game is just asking for it to be blown out of the sky. Having almost nothing (except for your portal carriers ofc) gives you the advantage of making sure your stuff gets to strike first.

This is also the reason I dont like hybrids, as it leaves so much out in the open, yet keeping some stuff in the portal gives you less target saturation

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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 20 2011, 00:53

Okay i see your point. I think with a WWP list you need to find a balance because i would be more worried about my wwp carriers being the only target on the field or you can have your opponent spread his shooting out. My opinion. I only got to play one game so far so i dont have that much experince

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astorre
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 20 2011, 01:03

@lululu_42 wrote:
Okay i see your point. I think with a WWP list you need to find a balance because i would be more worried about my wwp carriers being the only target on the field or you can have your opponent spread his shooting out. My opinion. I only got to play one game so far so i dont have that much experince

Your portal carriers are basically given up for dead. You make up for this by not having to buy transports, and therefore having more/bigger units.
I don't think a "balanced" list would work as well,
I am trying two units of Wracks as my portal carriers. One on foot, and one in a Raider. If their Raider gets shot down it will mean that the second portal won't get deployed til turn 2, but alas that is the risk you take. With cover/feel no pain they can usually weather the first turn. After the portals drop, they just start running towards an objective. They are pretty good for getting an enemy unit out of cover as well (where objectives always seem to be even though I put mine out in the open), they don't have grenades but you can drop 2 or 3 Liquifiers on the enemy squad before they have to assault.

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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 20 2011, 03:40

Nononono what i mean by balance is a balance between the number of things you deploy and number of things you keep in reserve. Like i deploy my raider with my hamys and grotesques, venom and ravager while my wracks and reavers stay reserved. This way my opponent has to determine the threat values each turn keeping him guessing of my larger plan

But i do need to get more games in thoguh to make sure uts working.

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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 01 2012, 18:10

As im understanding this, portals can be effective if placed in cover, near a objective, just less then half way up the table. the most effective units are anything with alot of speed(beasts 12" assault/ jetbikes/ Jump infantry).
the risk is your opponents will most likely shoot the carrying untis right away so they cannot be deployed or have to be deployed too soon. vehicles can assit a "archon"(or equivilent) via transport or acting as a wall to block LOS.

just to summerize how IM understanding how it works. I havnt had a game yet and my first DE models are yet to arrive. my curriosity in the portals is the possability of being a false objective. taking a flood of homunculi alows multiple WWP to be carried and dropped. if an opponent is well aware that blocking a portal is an option would it be worth it to drop a number of them Away from an objective so they have to spend units and turns to prevent anything from coming through. the trick being nothing needs to come through but can if they leave them open.
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Smurfy
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 02 2012, 08:56

My logic in WWP is a bit different from the norm; first a sample list I've been using to great success:

Quote :
HQ] Haemonculus: SP & CCW; Liquifier Gun & Webway Portal -95
HQ] Haemonculus: SP & CCW; Shattershard-65

HQ] Succubus: Venom Blade & Blast Pistol -85

EL] 4 Kabalite Trueborn: 2 Splinter Rifles, 2 Dark Lances -98
/Venom: 2 Splinter Cannons; Flickerfield & Night Shields -75
EL] 4 Kabalite Trueborn: 2 Splinter Rifles, 2 Dark Lances -98
/Venom: 2 Splinter Cannons; Flickerfield & Night Shields -75
EL] 6 Harlequins: 4 SP & Harlequin's Kisses; 2 Fusion Pistols & Harlequin's Kisses -152

TR] 5 Wracks: 1 Liquifier Gun -60
/Venom: 2 Splinter Cannons; Flickerfield & Night Shields -75
TR] 7 Wychs: SP & CCW; Haywire Grenades -84
/Raider: Dark Lance; Shock Prow -65
TR] 7 Wychs: SP & CCW; Haywire Grenades -84
/Raider: Dark Lance; Shock Prow -65
TR] 7 Wychs: SP & CCW; Haywire Grenades -84
/Raider: Dark Lance; Shock Prow -65

FST] 5 Scourges: 3 Shardcarbines, 2 Heat Lances -134
FST] 5 Scourges: 3 Shardcarbines, 2 Heat Lances -134

HVY] Ravager: 3 Dark Lances; Night Shields -115
HVY] Ravager: 3 Dark Lances; Night Shields -115
HVY] Razorwing Jetfighter: 2 Dark Lances, 1 Splinter Cannon,
4 Monoscythe Missiles; Flickerfield & Night Shields -175

-1998

My opinion is WWP adds flexibility to a DE list, it doesn't change it much unless you start taking slower options like Grotesques/Talos/Cronos into the list. But this limits you, you lose your perhaps most needed slots to "combat units". I don't like this because you need firepower more than you do CC.

I took Wychs for survivability/cheapness/easy dual role. Warriors have been extremely unsatisfying in this department. Wracks would work ideally, but I am not willing to buy tons of Wracks box at the moment.

Now the big tenant I go against compared to many WWP lists is I have transports, however this is a "duo-army" in that remember no one has to ride their Dedicated Transports. So the enemy usually has to contend with:

Wracks+3 HQs; 2x Lance Teams; and all the vehicles as the WWP wardens
Everything else Reserves, and has the flexibility of deploying a variety of ways, hell, if the WWP is a bad idea I just keep near my own edge and get in my rides ANYWAY.

If I don't have first turn against the likes of Mech IG with plenty of ranged shooty the typical play of still Reserving has to be played and my list isn't hurt by this save the Lance teams. This is where many WWP lists fall apart, they try to work with their usual plan of working around the WWP and get crushed by bad dice luck/bad matchups even worse than normal DE would.

This is better than 3x Blasterborn to me because you have true meltas (abite short-ranged) on your clowns and your Lanceborn don't die like Blasterborn do. (In case you haven't heard my issues against Blasterborn - They shoot once or twice then they/them with their vehicle are shot out of existence due to no ablative wounds; at least with Lanceborn you got range to dismiss much of the firepower that would otherwise go their way AND have said ablative wounds. They've served me loads better than suicide blaster teams)

Anyways, back to the duo-army. I have plenty of anti-tank and anti infantry in both sub-forces and the enemy can't really take maximum advantage vs either because of the options, it usually works for me because the enemy usually can't stay at farther ranges like us and we can use that to our advantage while deploying the WWP to help our shorter ranged aspects get into play. Night Shields on my main fire support vehicles is key I find. Don't forget, to save your arse vs. SW Scouts coming from behind you you just have to go into 14" from any edge and Night Shields saves you from anything those pesky dudes think they can do. Wink

I start with all the HQs attached to the Wracks if I'm confident to get the WWP deployed and make use of it, it's pretty hardy to get rid of from range due to being Fearless and FNP on T4 majority (So it takes missile volleys to realistically do damage to them, try taking on BA with FNP from range with your Venoms sometime, it's not pretty Wink)

The fleet of vehicles I think is a novel idea to keep to maintain board control options while keeping the firepower still great. Any questions? I don't think I've covered everything but I liked putting my own insight into this arguably under-utilized and under-valued tactic for DE armies to make use of.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 02 2012, 13:19

Here is workable WWP hybrid list

Baron 14 Helions
Haemy Portal (Pain Token for Helions)
3 x 4 Blasterborns in Venoms
4 x 3 Wracks in Venoms
4 Beastmasters 4 khimera 6 Razorwings
2 Ravagers (Flickers)
Talos Chains Heatlance
1849

Thats a roster for ETC, for a teamplay designed to kill specific builds like deathstar rosters, IG, Space Wolves, Razorspam, Nids, Daemons, Orks.

The guy who made it is kinda good player, defeated german team champion GK with his daemons last ETC 2011.
Thats roster is designed to maximise Portal worth, 2 or 3 units can be deplyed via it.
Thats a very solid roster, there is no weak elements it is split into several battle roles:

Long Range Support (Ravs),
Middle Range Support (Blaster Borns) ,
Distractions and First Wave assault ( Helions with 2 PT),
Second wave assault and finishers (beasts and Talos),
Battlefield Control and Long Range AI (Wracks and Venoms).

Troops is solid and can eat any enemy leftovers that get to the them en masse.
Portal is there to counter mass light vehicles spam and to hide Helions if situation required.
Solid 7 venoms of AI fire.

With a good placement of the portal Beasts have a really massive threat range and they will hit in full numbers.All of it is dualistic except for Control group which is AI exclusively , both First and Second assault wave pose a huge threat to both vehicles and infantry.
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Smurfy
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 02 2012, 18:33

Still suffers from the same thing most WWP lists do: Combat as Anti-Tank. It isn't good, however much people think it is:

Mechanized infantry armies just move 12" anyways and let you hit their shells, better run ones have the infantry get out alongside and use the mech aspects to force you to charge the tanks. Since you have little past the typical 3/3 DE rely on, I can and usually punish this, and they definitely would at a tournament.

ETC you should know this, but since ETC is all about the teams trading off who goes vs who, you probably have a 50/50 chance to get the matchup you favor? (Teasing while semi-serious, so ya know Wink)

The problems in this thought process? You have the grand majority of the list devoted to anti-infantry and have nothing to control movement. The fact the Beasts are in the portal makes them less viable in my eyes. Why? Because starting on the board, at range guarding one's ranged firepower, is win. For beasts crazily so, because they're so durable from ranged firepower in many setups, it might fool someone into shooting them.

Think ditto of the thinking you have for the Baron Blob, and you're fine as long as you get them to full-Pain tokens for Fearless, that's the crux of it.

All in all your list is an example of why many WWP lists fail, all serious-ness. I don't mean to degrade you but it's exactly what I've seen people do locally (and I vary where I play quite a bit) and I just do what I'm saying here, dismantle the army, and they wonder why it doesn't work when mine does.

Since I didn't do a breakdown:

Mine has Movement Control: Empty transports plugging space/Scourges/Wychs (Tarpits for Wychs; Scourges with versatile drop melta plugging space and forcing the enemy to either shoot them or move around them)
Long-Ranged support: Venoms/Ravagers/Razorwing Jet/Lanceborn Teams (I think this another reason I'm annoyed at your list - Wracks listed as RANGED support? lol come on, only the Venoms are, Wracks can go in reserve)
Close-Ranged support: Scourges/Harlequins/Wracks/HQs
Combat support: 3 HQs (can split them if need be so that'd be 3 units already)/Wychs/Wracks


Last edited by Smurfy on Mon Apr 02 2012, 18:57; edited 1 time in total
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 02 2012, 18:41

I tried 'pure' WWP as well as the hybrid variant being discussed; both turned out rather unsatisfying for me. If there's one thing left I'd like to try it's the Wracks + Archon carrier combo.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 04 2012, 08:23

@Smurfy wrote:
Now the big tenant I go against compared to many WWP lists is I have transports, however this is a "duo-army" in that remember no one has to ride their Dedicated Transports. So the enemy usually has to contend with:

Wracks+3 HQs; 2x Lance Teams; and all the vehicles as the WWP wardens
Everything else Reserves, and has the flexibility of deploying a variety of ways, hell, if the WWP is a bad idea I just keep near my own edge and get in my rides ANYWAY.

This is an excellent idea that you don't often hear of!

I'm toying around with using a WWP to screw with my opponent's ability to redeploy vs my extreme refused flank parking lot.

I squish 9+ skimmers into a 12" by 12" corner of my deployment zone (the side facing the least AT). My WWP deploys centrally. If my opponent wants to redeploy to bring all his AT to bear on my parking lot he has to worry about coming within charge range of 6+ units of evil goodness coming from the portal.

If i go first the parking lot will deploy centrally and turbo to the weaker side turn 1.

Ideally he will be pinned and my parking lot can torrent him to death from 36" one tank+unit at a time. I'll hopefully get to try it out this wkend. Think it will work?

Smurfy just to be clear what do you deploy, if anything, going second vs IG or other mass shooty?

How would you trim your list to 1750?




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Smurfy
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Join date : 2011-06-26
Location : Orange County, California

WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 04 2012, 10:05

I said, if it's something like Ranged IG shooty you're up against, use your rides! Just accept the WWP is not gonna work for you that game! Reserve up and play like a normal DE would in that case. Though if you feel lucky and still wanna use the WWP in my list's case (Like I have before) I'd deploy:

2x Lanceborn, Wracks+HQs, and the empty Transport fleet. (If you have first and don't think he will likely Sieze, put the Ravagers and possibly even the Jet on too, note how all my "important firepower" units have Night Shields to help the 36" ranged shooty firebase's capabilities. But assuming they have 1st, you're better off having the Heavy Support Skimmers in Reserves lest they be shot down pronto. Important to get the first shots off with our glass cannon fire-support)

The empty Raiders block Chimeras from moving down-field, the Lanceborn attempt to crack a transport or two and the Venoms cut down the insides while the Wracks/HQ WWP deploy unit covers your weaker flank. Your battleplan is very similiar to mine, save I am willing to sacrifice the Raiders to reduce enemy movement

I donno how I'd tone my list down but I think it's important to keep either Harlequins with a Shadowseer or a 3 Pain-Token laden unit to deploy the WWP without fear.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP, Can it be done?   WWP, Can it be done? - Page 3 I_icon_minitime

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