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 Scourges-how to use them?

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Vindicavi
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Theatakcat
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PostSubject: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 01:47

Hello forum,

I am quite a noob to Dark Eldar and I love scourges, so I want to know how to field them properly. I just don't know how to use them at all. Any advice on how you use this unit would be fantastic!

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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 07:41

They are reliable LandRaider killers. They are decently armored. I'd take them in a full ten squad with 4 Haywire blasters and six of those nasty 3 shot poison fire hoses. They hurt no matter who they are firing at. I see them as a very able replacement for Ravagers.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 11:45

That's 260 points to have 4 haywire shots when you could get 6 longer range dark lance shots from ravagers for 50 points less. I'm definitely opposed to splitting a units shots as extensively as that too because you're either wasting 18 poisoned shots on a vehicle or 4 haywire shots on infantry.

Another comparison that always makes me sad inside is that my chaos marines can get a raptor squad with the advantages of T4 and 3+ save and two melta guns for less points and better vehicle killing than our scourges with haywires or blasters yet I still don't even see that unit get used much.

I'd advocate keeping them bare bones or maybe giving them splinter cannons and focusing on infantry.
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Vindicavi
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 12:00

I tend to field a squad of 10 with 4 splinter cannons for infantry and MC harassment and they perform pretty well for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 12:08

Yes, I think infantry harassment is the way to go. Thank you very much for all your replies they have been very helpful.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 12:43

Also, when comparing scourges to vehicles (ravager), remember that scourges cannot be wiped out by 3 lucky autocannon shots...
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 14:04

Hmm... Maybe they are a good replacement for ravagers, with glancing being great in 7th maybe scourges are good at disposing of infantry and vehicles. In my army list I would most likely use them as anti-infantry as I already have two squads of suicide haywire wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 17:16

Run them with haywire blasters. We can get more efficiently costed anti-infantry elsewhere (the army is full of it). They have the exact same points cost and same FOC slot as reavers; so in order to compete you need to do things that reavers can't. That's limited to pretty much haywire and dark lances, and if you take the lances you're wasting their mobility.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 18:04

Interesting... They are pretty expensive for what they do, and you can get 2 squads of suicidal wych squads in venoms for one ten man scourge squad with haywire blasters. I think I'll just wait until the new codex comes out and hope it fares well for the scourges.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 20:02

Theyre not really expensive for what they do. Thats just it. For just a FEW points more than you'd pay for a pair of Ravagers, you increase your kill ratio quite dramatically. 6 Lances average 2 damage results against AV 12+. Haywire Blasters by comparison average slightly more (2.22), and against AV 11 the Ravagers average 2.66. So unless its a rhino, you'd want the birds.

But then look at it this way: you are ALSO able to completely negate the enemies ability to fire a Lascannon into you and end the threat. They must kill 6 birds before they affect your anti-tank ability.

Against an enemy that has a lot of armor, you want certainty. But a LOT of the Dark eldar weapons can handle AV 11 just fine, so why ask a Ravager OR the Birds to handle that duty anyways, unless you have to.

The unit is so much better than a Ravager against every other type of enemy that I really think that if you gave your Ravagers the ability to fire 18 extra Poisoned shots, and becoming immune to being one-shot, you'd pay for that upgrade. you would not be saying no!


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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 20:32

I'm really becoming more and more convinced about the Scourges the more I read this thread. I'm going to buy a Ravager anyway, because I've always wanted one, but I think I'll start running a big bird squad sometimes.

EDIT: Haha, not a Sesame Street style big bird squad. That would be scarier than anything in Commoragh.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 20:53

Thanks unorthodoxy for shedding more light on this subject. Thanks to you, you have convinced me to use the birdies. Thanks!

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 22:23

It's...what i do.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 23:01

Unorthodoxy wrote:
Theyre not really expensive for what they do.  Thats just it.  For just a FEW points more than you'd pay for a pair of Ravagers, you increase your kill ratio quite dramatically.  6 Lances average 2 damage results against AV 12+.  Haywire Blasters by comparison average slightly more (2.22), and against AV 11 the Ravagers average 2.66.  So unless its a rhino, you'd want the birds.

But then look at it this way:  you are ALSO able to completely negate the enemies ability to fire a Lascannon into you and end the threat.  They must kill 6 birds before they affect your anti-tank ability.

Against an enemy that has a lot of armor, you want certainty.  But a LOT of the Dark eldar weapons can handle AV 11 just fine, so why ask a Ravager OR the Birds to handle that duty anyways, unless you have to.  

The unit is so much better than a Ravager against every other type of enemy that I really think that if you gave your Ravagers the ability to fire 18 extra Poisoned shots, and becoming immune to being one-shot, you'd pay for that upgrade.  you would not be saying no!


You're leaving out other important details in the comparison too though.  Yes, a single lasercannon can knock out one of the two ravagers (11% chance with jink).  You're immune to almost all small-arms fire instead though.  Like the kind from all those squads the scourges have to be in range of to shoot at.  In comparison, most infantry squads will do enough damage to a squad of scourges to force a leadership check and even if they don't, the wounds caused will drastically reduce their output.  You're trading one vulnerability for another.

Your ravager also has a larger threat bubble to hit different targets as the shooting phase plays out.  I like to set up my guns so that I can see how the first shots resolve against a vehicle and if I force it to snapshoot, then I immediately redirect other guns against a different target.  The scourges smaller range leaves them less options for targets each turn and forces them into more dangerous positions to hit the targets that they can shoot.

I wouldn't do the poisoned ravager you propose because what I like to do with my other ravager is run disintegrators.  That's all the anti-infantry I desire and it fills a role that my venoms can't.  Also, I wouldn't call 50 points a "FEW", I'd call it a wych away from another venom.
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 23:12

I didn't leave it out. And you can minimize the frequency of getting one shot if you like but its a BIG deal when it happens. If you want to plan for the best case scenario, do so burt the birdies can take it with 4+/6+i plus whatever cover they get and they have wounds to give if they end up in dedicated anti-tank mode.

As for Disintegrators: I agree. I'd use Disintegrators 100% of the time on a Ravager. It utterly changes the conversation because its role completely changes because its now an anti-personell move (primarily)

Trueborn are your best anti-tank solution in most cases. They require the Venom to get them there and they suffer terribly from 2 Hull Point Venom explosions, so their mobility comes at potentially a very high cost. I take two units of Trueborn but there are other elites that one must consider and so you may well need the heavy slot for anti-tank weaponry. If you need a Heavy Support option for Anti-tank, by all means, reach for the Birds. Better than two Ravagers in my estimation.


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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 13 2014, 23:46

Unorthodoxy wrote:
I didn't leave it out.  And you can minimize the frequency of getting one shot if you like but its a BIG deal when it happens.  If you want to plan for the best case scenario, do so burt the birdies can take it with 4+/6+i plus whatever cover they get and they have wounds to give if they end up in dedicated anti-tank mode.

As for Disintegrators:  I agree.  I'd use Disintegrators 100% of the time on a Ravager.  It utterly changes the conversation because its role completely changes because its now an anti-personell move (primarily)

Trueborn are your best anti-tank solution in most cases.  They require the Venom to get them there and they suffer terribly from 2 Hull Point Venom explosions, so their mobility comes at potentially a very high cost.   I take two units of Trueborn but there are other elites that one must consider and so you may well need the heavy slot for anti-tank weaponry.  If you need a Heavy Support option for Anti-tank, by all means, reach for the Birds.  Better than two Ravagers in my estimation.


Something must not have been clear there. I'm not discounting the chance that a single lasercannon can kill a ravager at all. I'm saying you left out the fact that the scourges can similarly be wiped out by weapons that the ravager doesn't have to fear, which I don't see you mentioning anywhere.

I'd give the average infantry unit about an 11% chance of rendering the scourges useless through casualties dealt or morale tests failed. Unfortunately, that would cost the scourges the whole 260 point unit instead of a single 105 ravager. I'd also venture to say that there are probably more units on a table that pose a significant threat to the scourges in this way than there are lasercannons to threaten the ravagers and the scourges are going to be in range of more of them because of their shorter range.
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges-how to use them?   Scourges-how to use them? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 14 2014, 00:10

IMO they key with Scourges is the fact that you can DS them into position, with HWB or heatlances. If I run a ravager I put dissies on it and run around scaring infantry with that. Generally you have a very high chance at destroying something with scourges as opposed to the 3 dark lances, which will probably be snap shots because of jink. That also allows you to keep your Heavy Support open for RZWF which in my opinion are fantastic right now. Those missiles and having two DL or Dissies in the air? much more appeal than a ravager for me. Especially since the RZWF can be taken bare bones, and probably only with a flickerfield. With a cannon and flickerfield for 40 more points you have a much more scary vehicle than the ravager, flying MC's HAH! Dark Lances are not our best AT at the moment. (damn space wolves and their ap1 lance grumble grumble grumble)

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