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 "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?

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40kScribe
Hellion
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PostSubject: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 03 2014, 21:54

I understand that a competitive list using the 3rd edition codex may not be possible, so I'd like to come up with something that is as competitive as possible.

That being said, when I first got into Dark Eldar, I expected them to fit the description that everyone had always told me since I started playing 40k, back in 2002, namely that they are supposedly:
- Possibly the worst army
- Hard to master
- Extremely dangerous but only in the hands of a veteran

I wanted a challenge, and I wanted to be able to say that I beat my buddies using 'the weakest codex'! Well.. several months later, and I can say that they're really strong and I do NOT feel that we have the weakest 'dex in the game. Not by a long shot! So I purchased a brand new 3rd/4th edition codex (10$!) and have been flipping through it, wanting to field my army based on the old edition, just to see how well I could do with this (dare I say?) handicap.

Looking at the codex I'm honestly not seeing much that's very good atall, mwahahahaaa (lol... just what I wanted --what's wrong with me?? Am I a masochist? Hmmm...well, I do play Dark Eldar..)

I'm seeing Ravagers being similar to what they are now with our current codex, as well as Raiders -- but the Warriors don't have poisoned weapons. There are some close combat units, but I'm not feeling it..

So what (in your opinion) would be the strongest Dark Eldar build using a 3rd edition codex? If you played using that codex and experienced success, what did you field, and what was your general strategy?

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Korwey
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PostSubject: Re: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 03 2014, 22:11

Ravagers and then you can spam Riders filled with warriors with two lances per squad.
And maybe some wyches (they had a 3+ dodge after a FAQ) and Archon on a reaver. Grotesques were immune to low strength fire - old FNP was the king. Those were some good things that I remember from those days. You must not forget that the other codexes were different/not existing back then so don't compare it with what we can fight against now.
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thesaltedwound
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PostSubject: Re: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 03 2014, 23:00

Are you going to play a game of 3rd ed? Or just try to field an army from that codex? Yeah you raise some interesting questions about rules, Korwey. Old definitions of special rules or not? Because agonisers back then just ignored armour saves, which could be awesome. But then again raiders weren't assault vehicles.

100% take an archon on a jetbike! Just so you've done it, once. Glorious.

Raiders full of wyches, but remember haywire wasn't a thing, so you'll need a ravager or two. I think the old scourges could take 2 DL and 2 SC in a 5-squad, but that might be wrong.

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40kScribe
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 03 2014, 23:27

Sweet thanks! The idea is to play the current iteration of 40k while fielding an army from a 3rd ed codex as best as possible (meaning: TAC, in my books). Yeah there are issues with rules but let's face it: such an army would not likely end up in a tournament under the eye of intense scrutiny, but we can still make sense of the rules with the current rulebook. For instance it says that Incubi have power weapons, which back then meant that they ignored armour saves, but in seventh that would mean that their weapons are AP3 (in this case it sucks but that's part of the challenge)

Dark Eldar retro baybeeee Wink

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thesaltedwound
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PostSubject: Re: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 04 2014, 00:33

I'm so into this. Digging my codex out. What points value are we looking at?

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40kScribe
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 04 2014, 01:13

All my armies start at 1000, but I let's do 1850 (no allies)
EDIT: here's my list. Comments and criticism are welcome

H.Q.: 320 Points
- Dark Eldar Lord + Reaver Jetbike + Agoniser + Shadow Field
- 3x Haemonculus + Scissorhand + Stinger + Combat drugs

ELITES: 450 Points
- 10x Grotesques *joined by a Haemunculus
- 10x Grotesques *joined by a Haemunculus
- 10x Grotesques *joined by a Haemunculus

TROOPS: 750 Points
- 10x Warriors + Dark lance + Raider + Disintegrator
- 10x Warriors + Dark lance + Raider + Disintegrator
- 10x Warriors + Dark lance + Raider + Disintegrator
- 10x Warriors + Dark lance + Raider + Disintegrator
- 10x Warriors + Dark lance + Raider + Disintegrator

HEAVY SUPPORT: 315 Points
- Ravager
- Ravager
- Ravager

1835/1850 (15 points left)

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 04 2014, 06:12

I'm going to open up by expressing that a couple of the comments about the old 3rd edition dex feel like they are being made by people who don't understand the dex.
Also, anyone who said the DE is the weakest dex (in either version) was smoking crazy juice - we have never been the weakest dex at any stage.
Finally - I personally think the 3rd edition dex is more powerful than the current dex

we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k wrote:
Dark Eldar Lord + Reaver Jetbike + Agoniser + Shadow Field
This is a poor build - if you're going on a bike anyway then you should take the Punisher and T.Helm. Also, frankly, leaving off combat drugs? NO! You ALWAYS take drugs with your Lord - always!


we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k wrote:
- 3x Haemonculus + Scissorhand + Stinger + Combat drugs
The Stinger Pistol is terrible - take a Destructor.
Also, with the change to core rulebook rules, a venom blade is overall probably a better option.
Haems do not particularly benefit from Drugs, I would consider that an easy thing to cut to gain back points for other changes.


we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k wrote:
- 10x Grotesques *joined by a Haemunculus
- 10x Grotesques *joined by a Haemunculus
- 10x Grotesques *joined by a Haemunculus
 Evil or Very Mad 

Well...it's amusing, but I expect it to be shot off the table pretty easily.


we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k wrote:
- 10x Warriors + Dark lance + Raider + Disintegrator
- 10x Warriors + Dark lance + Raider + Disintegrator
- 10x Warriors + Dark lance + Raider + Disintegrator
- 10x Warriors + Dark lance + Raider + Disintegrator
- 10x Warriors + Dark lance + Raider + Disintegrator
Why ten Warriors? Why not just five? Also, why not use the extra points to buy a Blaster - a Blaster is better than a bunch of lasrifles.

I'd also favor Lances on Raiders, myself.


we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k wrote:
- Ravager
- Ravager
- Ravager
I favor Dissies on Ravagers.
Local meta can affect this choice, but I think it is the better setup - as when you shoot at infantry it's nice to just lay down the blasts in one go for maximum saturation.

we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k wrote:
1835/1850 (15 points left)
Put Combat Drugs on your Archon, also, frankly, switch out his weapon loadout.

I would say that Punishers = Klaives and Agonisers = Agonisers as far as a rule switchover goes. They are analogous weapons.

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PostSubject: Re: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 04 2014, 11:28

Awesome review -- I was hoping you'd share your input! Smile

About giving the Lord a Punisher, given that he's on a jetbike he can't take it because it's a two-handed weapon.

I put 10 Warriors per Raider for two reasons:
1. More shots
2. Greater chance of passing leadership/morale/pinning checks when Raiders get blown up

I had added the Grotesques as bullet-magnets (who wouldn't want to shoot 30 wild things running across the board straight at their lines? Then they find out it takes strength 6 to affect them), as well as tarpits. I had given them a Haemonculus each but you caution against the Grotesques, leaving the Haemonculus by themselves

So that's 450 spare points from the Grotesques, plus another 200 from the 25 Warriors taken out of the Raiders -- what would you do with all those extra points (other than the changes you mentioned, like giving the Warriors blasters )?

Also would you keep the Haemonculuses and if so, where would you put them? With Raider Squads?

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thesaltedwound
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PostSubject: Re: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 04 2014, 12:09

Capturing models for victory points as per 3rd ed codex - allowed in this hypothetical? If so, don't even think about not giving someone an Animus Vitae. 5 points per model captured!

I've got to be bold and disagree with thor about a bunch of things. Here goes.

You can't take a punisher on a bike - it's still a two-handed weapon. The t-helm just lets you fight as though it wasnt. Agoniser (and t-helm, why not) would be my best choice for the archon, with an animus if my first point stands. Also yes, drug him.

Depending who you're fighting, stinger pistol can be great. The victim explodes at S=T and AP=Sv, so once you kill one guy it's 4+s to kill anyone nearby. Destructors don't wound high T enemies nearly as reliably, but you do kill more overall at low T

I also don't think the grots would go down that easily - remember only S6 weapons or greater can hurt them, assuming that since their FNP rule is laid out in full, it overrides rulebook. If not, then they're just bad wracks.

Big warrior squads - yes, dark lances - probably not. You're going to be wasting those extra shots or the lance points most rounds. Give em splinter cannons. They're still assault 4.

I've still done no maths, or produced a list, but there are my thoughts so far...

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40kScribe
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PostSubject: Re: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 04 2014, 15:45

This is looking good we've got a dialogue about a topic I thought few people would be interested in and I've already learned a lot about the old codex! I hope we get more points of view on this Smile

Once the conversation has run its course, and assuming I  can get my hands on a new (or borrowed) computer, I'd like to make YouTube video and this (with a link to this thread) for my channel

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 04 2014, 15:50

we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k wrote:
About giving the Lord a Punisher, given that he's on a jetbike he can't take it because it's a two-handed weapon.
If you're running the old dex, then you need to be running the old FAQs - we ride our bikes Apache style and don't need a free hand to use them per the most recent 3rd edition DEldar FAQ.

we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k wrote:
I put 10 Warriors per Raider for two reasons:
1. More shots
2. Greater chance of passing leadership/morale/pinning checks when Raiders get blown up
1. More Str 3 AP 5 shots? Will those really help you more than a Str 8 AP 2 shot? Especially in a unit you have a Lance in - so theoretically your goal is to shoot it at enemy vehicles. There are not many things that a lasrifle helps against that you want to shoot a dark lance at.

2. I agree this does help that situation, I disagree that it's a worthwhile concern.

we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k wrote:
I had added the Grotesques as bullet-magnets (who wouldn't want to shoot 30 wild things running across the board straight at their lines? Then they find out it takes strength 6 to affect them), as well as tarpits. I had given them a Haemonculus each but you caution against the Grotesques, leaving the Haemonculus by themselves
I do - The Grots work about once versus a player who doesn't know what they do, and after that they only work against a player who lacks a decent assault option. The Haems are not going to be enough to save the Grots from a solid assault unit. Your points would be better spent getting an escort for the bike Lord or just buying some wyches or something.

I do caution about the Haems because the Haems are not adding a lot to your army in their current build.

we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k wrote:
So that's 450 spare points from the Grotesques, plus another 200 from the 25 Warriors taken out of the Raiders -- what would you do with all those extra points (other than the changes you mentioned, like giving the Warriors blasters )?
Reaver escort.
Wyches w. blasters.
Another lord w. Retinue.

we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k wrote:
Also would you keep the Haemonculuses and if so, where would you put them? With Raider Squads?
What Haems bring to the table from the 3rd edition dex is the Destructor. That's really about it. I used to field them with Wyches so that after the Wyches disembarked the Haem could fly around and drop flame templates on things.

They also potentially provide a slight bump in assault.

That's about it.

Haems became the 'must take' in the new dex with the pain tokens - Haems in 3rd were a 'might take' specifically for the flamers. So take them for flamers, or save the points.

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thesaltedwound
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PostSubject: Re: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 04 2014, 18:07

Ah, I was unaware of old FAQ! Is this the one that gave wyches the 3+ dodge etc? Can anyone provide a link (it would be great to put it in the forum resources!)

Reaver escort for the Lord was the thing I forgot to say, but I'm going to stop commenting until I find the FAQ for 3rd

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 04 2014, 22:56

@thesaltedwound wrote:
Ah, I was unaware of old FAQ! Is this the one that gave wyches the 3+ dodge etc? Can anyone provide a link (it would be great to put it in the forum resources!)
Wyches never had a 3+ dodge that I was aware of.
I don't have a link, all I have are the copies I saved.

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PostSubject: Re: "Competitive" 3rd Edition List?   "Competitive" 3rd Edition List? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 05 2014, 03:20

The current dex nerfed elements of the old 3e list, so using the 3e list is all about using what was nerfed. The main changes are...
- Disintegrators are plasma cannons that don't overheat (with a s4 ap3 heavy 3 alternative fire mode)
- Terror/Horrorfex grenade launchers causing pinning everywhere (blast weapon, reduces enemy LD by 1 for every model above the first one caught in blast. Infantry terrorfex is 12" vehicle horrorfex is 18")
- Darklances are cheap (10pts!) and plentiful. Blasters are 12" and 5pts
- Jetbike Punisher drug Archon! Heck pretty much any squad leader can take a Punisher!
- Wych weapons remove the extra attack from an enemy with an extra ccw, and reduces their WS by 1/2 if they're under s6 (and also have a 4+ inv sv in CC, from the FAQ)
-Combat drugs are CHOSEN PER CHARACTER per assault phase. You can also choose to take more than one but if doubles are rolled you take one wound, if triples are rolled you die (no matter what you roll though you get to choose your drug, the rolling is simply to make multiple drugs risky). So an Archon or squad leader with a Punisher can always choose the strength +1 drug to swing at strength 5 all the time.

Drug choices
* +1 strength
* +1 attack
* +1 WS
* charge 12" and pursue/fall back 3d6"
* always strike first, ignoring cover
* re-roll misses


Here's an example of a fairly well optimized 3e Codex list:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Mark-McDonald-Dark-Eldar.pdf


You'll notice the key units are...
-Raider warriors
-foot Warriors
-Wyches with raiders and with 2x blasters
-Raiders (55pts) with horrorfex
-Ravagers with horrorfex and 2 disintegrators
-ws6 s5 a4 Archon on Jetbike
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