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Nepenthe
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PostSubject: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 08 2011, 10:53

I looked around here, and on some other forums, but can't seem to find a good, comprehensive insight into using wracks. I've been kind of ignoring them, first due to lack of models, and then a general lack of interest in the (finecast) covens.

It appears that most of the time people seem to be using them simply for pain token shenanigans and as cheap "WraVU" type units for venom spam. They're still T4, 1-2ultraflamer, 6+/FNP, poisoned CC guys (that, admittedly, lack grenades). (and, on a personal level, I think a lot of the join x to y and leave first turn smacks to me off unsportsmanlike waac conduct that I will not join in).

So, my question is, in a mixed list (kabal, wych, coven), how do they measure up? Do we have specialists like wyches and incubi that do everything better? Or is there actually a viable use for the haemacolytes, that doesn't involve 3-4 of them going to ground on your home objective? How would you equip them, and what, if anything, would you do with an acothyst?
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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 08 2011, 12:26

I have used id once, on foot with 2 liquifire guns aganst necrons on small points battle.
They are nice and tough, liquifire is madness....for 3 rounds I had S1-2 same with AP.

I would trow them at somthing with high T when poison weapon can shine like wraitguards/plauge marines/some tyranids....wyches are tarpit for powerful CC and incubi are to cut heads of.
Remember they dont have fleet and get clowe before charge.

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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 08 2011, 14:11

I use them all the time.

Take a unit of 3, join them to an IC. He leaves them 1st turn with their PT in tow to join another unit that needs the PT more than the wracks. The wracks then go and hide, and I mean hide, out of LOS behind a piece of terrain, close to the objective I have handily placed earlier.
They then walk out and claim that objective late in the game. Ofcourse in KP games they are simply carrying out KP denial by doing this.

Unsportsmanlike WAAC conduct?? Last tournament I went to I had 5 of my 6 games voted as the best game they played all weekend by my opponents, (the 6th was 2nd best). Obviously the people I played did not feel aggrieved by my tactics, it's the player that is unsprotsmanlike and WAAC, not the tactic. I finished 4-2, so it's not like I was getting votes for being a good loser either.

Anyway for 30 points you get a unit that provides a boost to another unit in your army, is scoring (with heami), and is either ignored by your opponent or takes some effort for him to remove. Whats not too like about this.
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 08 2011, 15:05

Wracks are surprisingly interesting when I first used them early on. They are somewhat resilient and can be made to do a couple of roles successfully if you plan your list well.

First as a WWP escort they are a god-send compared to what I had to work with in the last codex. Their toughness and FnP are the perfect compliments to take on an entire opponents shooting phase even if they are the only targets on the table. When used in the role and on foot I keep them simple with no upgrades - if you give them a little cover they can survive the first turn easily, get the portal out and after that they drop in priority as other units emerge from the table.

I also use them as mounted wwp escorts and again, the unit is simple to use - boost 12", deploy for 2" and drop the portal. This unit I will also add an acothyst and a liquifier but their main purpose is to get that portal out there and survive the first turn.

As an all out assault unit on a raider, they have surpassed my expectations every time. I will either use them in conjunction with another blitzing unit (usually Urien and a squad of Grotesques) and flat-out them straight at the enemy. The dual templates are golden and huge amount of poison saves the opponent takes usually is enough wear down an enemy target but not wipe them out. I have been told several times after 10 wracks, 2liquifiers and an Acothyst with an agoniser attack that they are "broken" and way over powered. I will often put them a raider or two (in some cases) in reserve and just have them flat-out and sail on to the board when they arrive - one full squad of wracks can assault on their own especially if you can get the liquifiers off before the charge.

In wwp lists where I have a strong coven theme I will also use a full 10 man assault squad on foot in the portal. 2 liquifiers and an agoniser in the squad and when they emerge they can flame and charge. Unlike the others, they do not fear not having a target when they emerge and their threat is so short range that they do not rank too high on the enemy's priority. I also think that their threat to the enemy is strictly anti infantry and that doesn't seem to scare anybody.

So, in my experiences I have ran all wracks before and I notice I wished to have a little more in the way of being able to deal with armor (even if it is just light armor) rather than just anti infantry. Lately, I have been using a mix of 50% wracks and 50% wyches in my troop slots. They wyches provide a dual role and are better geared for dealing with all kinds of threats and at "taking away" objectives. In a list like this, I use the wracks as either wwp escorts or raider rush escorts that get thrown at the enemy screaming "shoot me, shoot me"! (game starters). They do make good objective campers and can defend an objective decently when charged however their main weakness is dealing with armor so beware.

Looking at the other lists I see that wracks are used differently than the way I use them but take that into consideration, I like to have assault based units and even wracks are expected to assault eventually.

One other note I want to add is that of the Acothyst - I am at the point where I really do not think giving him something special like an agoniser is really necessary. Most often it is the sheer weight of poison attacks that kill off the target, not the 2 or 3 attacks of the agoniser so lately I have been not giving the Acothyst anything - I just do not think he needs it at that price.

Just my view from a non-internet point of view.

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Nepenthe
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 08 2011, 15:22

Many thanks, Grumpy, yours was the precise kind of feedback I was looking for. I'm now encouraged to try them out in combo with my wych and incubus squads. Smile

As for what I consider unsportsmanlike and WAAC - I don't play in stores or tournaments, just among friends. Playing the system is consider ungentlemanly. Obviously, different scenes, different ways of playing. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 16:12

As Grumpy Kwi did, I started using Wracks as my wwp escort, and nothing else. 3 of them unlocks a venom, and with a haemie that can surivive the T1 onslaught with 4 cover/FNP wounds, and have two tokens to pass along to the next unit, they were amazing.

Now adays it seems Im taking them more than wyches for the simple fact they are amazing for a counter-assault unit. 5 of them with a liquifier in a dual cannon venom is dirt cheap, and you get 2 of those units multicharging, and their damage output has exceeded my expectations every time. Also being one of the few units we can take with a flamer, and being a troop choice with a Haemie to boot, makes them invaluable to a all shooting army imho.

I also dont like giving the Acothyst any weapon as well. I dont know, but paying to lose an attack erks me. And just doesnt seem needed. Only thing I could see taking is the scissorhands, but even that its expensive for just 3+ poison and an extra attack when you are already rocking 4+

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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 18:13

Lack of anti-armor options has kept Wracks out of my lists so far. Can't say more about them, really; I suppose they'd be great vs. mass infantry but I haven't come across any yet, making their 'expertise' unneeded...

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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 19:35

Right. I constantly see them being used as WWP escorts, but what does a unit of wracks and a venom offer that a unit of warriors in a raider doesn't?

I just feel that the unit is doing little more then being ablative wounds for the haemonculus, but will do little else the rest of the game. Now, the unit is cheap, 30/40 pts, but wouldn't it make much more sense to have a unit of 7-9 warriors with a blaster in a raider instead. They will still have FnP, a 5+ armor save, and will have ranged capabilities. This unit can be plunked down in cover, the haemi can drop the WWP, and they can now provide protection for the WWP while still contesting/capturing objectives. The raider provides an additional source of AT (which is minimal in most WWP lists), while the warrior squad provides anti-infantry power comparable to a 2 SC venom.

I just feel that the wrack escort does little more then sit there, and hopefully not die. If it gets charged, its dying, it can't shoot, and offers the same protection as the warrior squad. The only difference is that warriors aren't T4, but warriors make up for this with additional models (wounds) and ranged offensive ability. What do you guys think?
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Nepenthe
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 19:40

That was kind of my background for starting this thread, and I'm still not convinced I'd take them over a wych squad on a regular basis. Still, I like to move things around, and 2 super powerful flamers in a decent close combat squad is not a bad unit... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 19:57

@Nepenthe wrote:
That was kind of my background for starting this thread, and I'm still not convinced I'd take them over a wych squad on a regular basis. Still, I like to move things around, and 2 super powerful flamers in a decent close combat squad is not a bad unit... Smile

Ah, but specifically concerning the escort roll, do you think they offer anything over a regular warrior squad. I would never consider a wych squad for WWP escort, against shooting armies you are most likely leaving yourself in the open with no way to retaliate and they can't be taken in small enough squads to justify their cost (like wracks can).
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Nepenthe
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 20:05

TBH, I haven't given that aspects much thought, as apart from harlequins I don't have anything in my army I'd particularly like to deploy from a wwp (which is a shame, since I got two of the official templates) Wink

I think the problem is that the second you start considering a unit's role as "wwp escort", you're not taking the most out of it. Drop the wwp, move on. Wracks are good in the way that the haemie doesn't slow them down, while if you have a good place to entrench them (hopefully, an objective) warriors or even the famous "dakkassault trueborn" might do very well, if you are feeling indulgent.
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 20:22

The few times I have run WWP lists, I've found that the following unit:

HQ: Haemonculus w/ Liquifier and Webway Portal - 95
Troops: Wracks - 160
- Wrack w/ Liquifier
- 8x Wracks
- Raider

is not only sufficient to safely deploy a webway portal midfield ASAP, but also draws a lot of fire that they can usually take and can also dish out a beating to almost any unit foolish enough to get into flamer range, which will often make them Fearless.

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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 20:44

3 Wracks is (the point cost for 2 blasters) to give an IC a pain token or make a vehicle scoring. That's too much. The IC may need a pain token, you may need more troops, but 3 T4 dudes with a 6+, FNP, and no fleet or shooting is not KP denial. Only a bad player will let you hide your minimum wrack squads out of LOS when they're easy KP and objectives to take.

Instead, consider 5 wracks with liquifier. 5 models means you can lose one without taking a morale test. Liquifier means they can do something in every phase, and I'm sure I don't have to sell you on what a wonderful weapon it is. For double the points of 3 wracks, you get an actual unit that is effective AI and can contribute something to the battle, not just ablative wounds or an upgrade to your venom/raider. 3 wracks average 1.5 wounds on MEQs. Not good. 5 net 2.5 wounds, and the liquifier will probably 2 or .66 kills, depending on the AP roll. Nice!

You can run them in a venom, but a good heuristic is to run dedicated AT in a Venom, and hybrid or dedicated AI in a Raider, to ensure duality and balance. Also, a raider gives you the option to take that character with them, who can disembark with the token and fleet-assault where needed. A cheap haemonculus with venom blade, shattershard, and/or liquifier is always welcome to boost shooting and/or assault, drop a WWP, and give Furious Charge. S4 lets you re-roll to wound against Marines too, who are forced to charge you. When Dark Eldar dictate tactics, their player wins games. An acothyst is welcome for the LD, but weapon upgrades are not so helpful.

So, 5 man wracks fulfill a role Wyches and Warriors don't: dedicated AI that can shoot AND assault in equal measure, and with T4 FNP and GTG, hold forward objectives before Turn 5. If your dice are betraying you too often Turn 5, consider 5 wracks with liquifier. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 20:46

@GreySeerZ wrote:
@Nepenthe wrote:
That was kind of my background for starting this thread, and I'm still not convinced I'd take them over a wych squad on a regular basis. Still, I like to move things around, and 2 super powerful flamers in a decent close combat squad is not a bad unit... Smile

Ah, but specifically concerning the escort roll, do you think they offer anything over a regular warrior squad. I would never consider a wych squad for WWP escort, against shooting armies you are most likely leaving yourself in the open with no way to retaliate and they can't be taken in small enough squads to justify their cost (like wracks can).
I think the point people are missing is that the role of the portal escort can vary, and it's really a question of what you want from it;

Warrior/Trueborn escort - Haem is a throwaway, the Warriors stay in their boat and proceed to shoot at stuff. The value gained is extra shooting. The loss is that the pain token, and the Haem himself, are functionally pointless after portal deploy.

Wych escort - Haem hops out and leaves Pain token with Wyches, Wyches go and assault stuff, Haem is himself a throwaway. The value is that you have a strong and fast Wych assault tool here, the drawback is that Wyches...well...a WWP army usually isn't screaming for more assault forces. Meh.

Wrack escort - Wracks hop out with the Haem. The value is a couple of things, firstly this option is the only option besides Trueborn that allows the portal to be deployed via Venom if you so desire. Second, this option is by far the cheapest, freeing up points to be used elsewhere in your army. Finally, since it makes sense for the Wracks to hop out with the Haem in order to maximize Pain token value - this is the only build that actually makes the Haem himself not really a throwaway unit. Even just 3 Wracks and a Haem can be a little tough to shoot off the board, and with furious charge they can be a threat in assault that probably should be paid attention to. The drawback is similar to Wyches - it's more assault force in an army that is naturally gifted with assault power.

I really don't see a clear cut win with the options, personally. For myself, I tend to avoid Wych delivery and lean towards Wrack/Warrior delivery depending on my shooting/assault needs.

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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 21:11

@Thor665 wrote:
I really don't see a clear cut win with the options, personally. For myself, I tend to avoid Wych delivery and lean towards Wrack/Warrior delivery depending on my shooting/assault needs.

Ah, ok, this is what I was looking for. So the choice is between wracks/trueborn/warriors. I understand the benefits of wracks, and while difficult as it is to destroy a squad of 3, they are also doing little to nothing with their 2 pain tokens and 4-man unit. This leads me to wanting to buff the squad and throw them in a raider. But as you said, in an army that will already be heavily saturated with CC (beasts, Talos, hellions, etc.) does it really make sense to include wracks as well, especially considering that at the end of first turn their transport will be destroyed (almost 100% chance) and now they will be forced to foot slog towards the enemy. This isn't much of an issue if you can park them comfortably on an objective in cover, but what if you can't, they're as good as dead.

Now, a unit of warriors/trueborn still have the potential to provide ranged damage after their transport is destroyed (as they do not rely on mobility to get in them in CC). Of these two, which performs the escort roll better? Warriors are cheaper, and have the same defensive profile, but trueborn have access to a greater assortment of weapons and +1 A. Is that worth the extra points that they cost? I could see blasters or other weapons being a great addition, but with only 2 units on the field to start, ablative wounds are a necessity in making sure your expensive special weapons aren't instantly removed, making the true born even more expensive. Also, is the incentive of taking a venom really that much greater over a raider? If so, why?
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 22:59

The incentive for me atleast is cheaper the better. For 85 points, you have a viable transport to get that portal open T1, and a possibility to keep those two pain tokens if you wound allocate (all the wracks die, leaving the haemie with two tokens) that he can give to another unit coming out of the portal that despriately needs it. On top of that adding 10 points and you have a vehicle that can blow out any Devs or HWT T1 (hopefully, or atleast put a dent into them) which lowers return fire.

With your portal delivery options being so cheap, you have more room for more beasts and/ or whatever else you want to deal death.

The other thing I have to point out is that at small point games 500-1k, 95 points for a 12 shot 5++ vehicle that is scoring (with a haemie) is a powerful tool. take a look at my escalation league, and at 500 pts I have 3 venoms, two of which are 3 man wrack squads. that much shooting in such a small pts value is amazing.

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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16 2011, 23:24

At 500 points, the game is drastically different. You can't get real redundancy, and that totally changes everything.

With redundancy, there's no need to play like marines, and min-maxing becomes less effective.

The WWP loses effect exponentially for every turn it isn't down. Really, making the guy who delivers it able to survive isn't this much of a problem - he can disembark into the edge of cover, and drop the portal turn 1. After that, defending the portal is WAY more important than defending the messenger.

Archons can take it too, don't forget. Wracks given an Archon FNP, making clone field/djin blade tech more viable.

Also, if you don't want to mech up your portal bearer(s)... consider a Shadowseer! Yes, you lose the whole ignore terrain thing, but outside of Dawn, your deployment isn't impaired, and you've already got a nice assault squad that can't be shot hugging the portal.
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 18 2011, 19:56

As I see it a wracks unit is more powerfull in CC against MEQ/GEQ

wracks with liquefier and heamy with liquefier to assist them, is a pretty deadly combo.

on the charge you get some good kills with the liquefiers, and in the first round of CC you have:
7 x 3 re-roll to wound poisoned 4+ attacks ( 2 pain tokens (S4 vs T4))
1 x 2 re-roll.... " "
1 x 4 attacks with whatever the heamonculus is packing

I see these quit capable of taking out squads with out to much afford.
Specially against high T target, (wraithlord, anyone?) it get's messy.

Downside is the potential dreadnought/killercan/defiler encounter.
just pray your DL's will do their job.

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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 18 2011, 21:45

@BlckRven wrote:
I see these quit capable of taking out squads with out to much afford.
Specially against high T target, (wraithlord, anyone?) it get's messy.

Meh. I'd rather Splinter those to death.

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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 19 2011, 17:42

@BlckRven wrote:
As I see it a wracks unit is more powerfull in CC against MEQ/GEQ

wracks with liquefier and heamy with liquefier to assist them, is a pretty deadly combo.

on the charge you get some good kills with the liquefiers, and in the first round of CC you have:
7 x 3 re-roll to wound poisoned 4+ attacks ( 2 pain tokens (S4 vs T4))
1 x 2 re-roll.... " "
1 x 4 attacks with whatever the heamonculus is packing
just pray your DL's will do their job.

Well... Lets do that math shall we Razz Ok... so we have 10 wracks w/ 2 liquifers, Acyothist with an Agoniser against 10 Tact marines w/ 1 special, 1heavy, sarge with PF.

Ok, considering we get the charge (most likely, as Tact marines wouldnt charge, they would Bolter you to death) and that there is no cover involved, and we didnt kill any with the liquifers (doubt it, but will calculate that later) We have the following (P.S. No haemie was calculated, as that is adding in an HQ, which then we could add in something compriable for the tact squad, and who wants to put a chappy in a tact squad Razz )

28 4+ posion attacks
3 4+ PW attacks

against:

9 regular attacks
2 PF attacks

Same time, except for the PF attacks ofc.

So The 28 attacks does 2.33 wounds after saves (28*.5*.5*.33=2.3) followed up by .75 wounds from the Acyothist (3*.5*.5=.75)

At the same time, we have the marines doing .93 wounds (9*.5*.5*.83*.5=.93) And at Init Last, The Sarge follows up with .83 wounds (2*.5*.83=.83)

So the wracks kill about 3 marines, and the tact marines alittle under 2 wracks in the exchange. Not bad for a 50 pt difference Razz Thats not including the Luqifier which has a 33% chance of ignoring their armor. Now lets the marine get a charge

So Wracks get:

18 4+ attacks
2 4+ PW attacks

Tact Marines:
18 attacks
3 PF attacks

So our Wracks are down to 1.49 Wounds (18*.5*.5*.33=2.3), while the Acoythist is doing .5(2*.5*.5=.5). The tacts are up to 1.87 wounds (18*.5*.5*.83*.5=1.87) and that mighty PF sarge is winding up to do 1.24 wounds (3*.5*.83=1.24)

So in total the wracks should kill 2 marines, before being dropped down by 3. Again not that bad, and should stick around enough to tie up that tact squad for 2 more rounds of combat or so. That being said the marines with their better armor (by a margin) and their PF doubling their sarges strength, they should pulll through on top. But like i said no marine would assault you (unless they were desperate) as their shooting is so much better.
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 19 2011, 18:20

You forgot Fell No Pain since Wracks start with a pain token. Unless you did factor that in.

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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 19 2011, 18:58

One question: Acoythist should have 4A on charge, and 3A without or agoniser and ccw dont give you bonus for dubble ccw?

It will change stats to 0.75 wound without charge and 1 wound with charge.

PS. It should be 27A for 9 wracks( that means 2.22 wounds)

Sory for this....just wanna get things right.

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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 19 2011, 22:41

Okay agreed, the maths are good for what was tested.

But, my post was actually pointing out that the +1 pain token from the heamy makes the difference, not so much his actual presence in the matter. So Lets (try) do the maths now:

Just for the simplicty lets say the unit consisted of all the wargear previously mentioned but has the advantage of the tokens.

Again, liquer for some odd reason fails completely.


So The 28 attacks does 3.465 wounds after saves:
((28*.5*.5)+(7*0.5)) / 0.33= 3.465
......roll.........re-roll.....save

followed up by 1.125 wounds from the Acyothist (3*.5*.5+.75*0.5=1.125)

Since I'm unlucky lets say thats 4 kills. Thanks to two paintokens I also gained 1 initiative, which means the marines hit with 4 marines less.

We have the marines then doing .5 wounds (5*.5*.5*.83*.5=.93) And at Init Last, The Sarge follows up with .83 wounds (2*.5*.83=.83)

So thats 4 vs 1 in the first round, all consecutive rounds will follow revenge math.

This is the first attempt ever at mathhammer, so be sure to validate this if you have doubts.

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BlckRven
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 19 2011, 22:43

@GrenAcid wrote:
One question: Acoythist should have 4A on charge, and 3A without or agoniser and ccw dont give you bonus for dubble ccw?

It will change stats to 0.75 wound without charge and 1 wound with charge.

PS. It should be 27A for 9 wracks( that means 2.22 wounds)

Sory for this....just wanna get things right.

The unit consisted of:
10 wracks : 3 x 10 =30
2 liqs : -2

acoythist...

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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 20 2011, 14:54

@lululu_42 wrote:
You forgot Fell No Pain since Wracks start with a pain token. Unless you did factor that in.

I did add in the pain token, thats why for my wounds done by the marines, there is an extra step "(18*.5*.5*.83*.5=1.87)

@GrenAcid wrote:
One question: Acoythist should have 4A on charge, and 3A without or agoniser and ccw dont give you bonus for dubble ccw?

It will change stats to 0.75 wound without charge and 1 wound with charge.

PS. It should be 27A for 9 wracks( that means 2.22 wounds)

Sory for this....just wanna get things right.

All wracks start with 2 poison 4+ weapons, which makes them special weapons. 1 normal CCW (or pistol) and 1 special weapon gives you an extra attack, as does having two of the same special weapons. Giving the Acoythist an Agoniser gives him 1 4+ power weapon, and 1 4+ poison weapon, meaning that he does not gain an attack because he has two special CCWs.

The same goes with the two wracks with liquifers, as they "exchange" one of their special CCWs for said liquifier. So they do not gain the bonus for having two as well.

The problem with throwing in a Haemie into "Vaccumhammer" is that it is no longer a troop vs troop senerio. Ofc I agree though that the Haemie drastically increases their killing compacity, even more so than any other IC (more attacks, gives them FC so they go first, re-roll to wound against T4 models) And it should be considered accordingly. I was just showing how good wracks did compared to your army "standard"
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PostSubject: Re: Wracktica   Wracktica I_icon_minitime

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