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 Combined Arms confusion

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Squidmaster
Klaivex
Squidmaster

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PostSubject: Combined Arms confusion   Combined Arms confusion I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 02 2014, 15:55

As some of you might know, I'm running the Pompey pillage this year (40k tournament near Portsmouth, UK).
And I've started getting army lists in, and a question came up that confused me.

Combined Arms Detachments.

I've been working under the assumption that if you take mutliple Combined Arms, then they all have to be of the same faction.
HOWEVER I find myself completely unable to back this up with a rule.

On pg.122, the rules for Combined Arms does say "All units must have the same faction", but this is the rule for the Detachment. Its a rule specifically put under the rules for a single Detachment, and does NOT say that all Combined Arms detachments must be of the same faction.

So unless I'm missing something:

1/ There is nothing stopping you from taking two Combined Arms Detachments from two different factions.
2/ There is no point to the Allied Detachment, unless you only want limited units from another faction.
3/ There is nothing to stop you taking one Combined Arms with a Fortification and a LoW, and then another from a different faction also with a Fortification and LoW.


AM I MISSING SOMETHING?!

(I realise this is probably a RAI vewrsus RA-poorly-W thing)

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Combined Arms confusion   Combined Arms confusion I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 02 2014, 16:17

Dealing with each of your questions in turn:

1) Correct
2) Correct
3) Correct

And yes, it is insane.

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Combined Arms confusion YhBv3Wk
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Evil Space Elves
Haemonculus Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Combined Arms confusion   Combined Arms confusion I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 02 2014, 16:25

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Dealing with each of your questions in turn:

1) Correct
2) Correct
3) Correct

And yes, it is insane.

This is the problem that I have with the new force org chart in the ork codex. It allows you to take three HQ's, but you have to take three troops and may take up to nine troop choices. You get hammer of wrath for units with more than 10 models, but you LOSE OBJECTIVE SECURED. Why would you take this instead of two regular CAD's of Orks if you want extra HQ's?

TO's are going to have to start making their own restrictions for these things to basically have the conversation that you have with a friend before playing as to what limitations that you are going to put in place.

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Combined Arms confusion   Combined Arms confusion I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 02 2014, 16:35

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
TO's are going to have to start making their own restrictions for these things to basically have the conversation that you have with a friend before playing as to what limitations that you are going to put in place.

NOVA and BAO have, I believe, restricted you to a single CAD but allowed an allied detachment to be from the same faction.

I'd like to say that I think this is simply crappy rules writing ( affraid ) and that the intent is clearly that multiple CADs have to be from the same faction but in this age of 'Bring whatever models you want' I honestly don't know that it's not intentional"

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Combined Arms confusion YhBv3Wk
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Siticus the Ancient
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Combined Arms confusion   Combined Arms confusion I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 02 2014, 16:43

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
This is the problem that I have with the new force org chart in the ork codex. It allows you to take three HQ's, but you have to take three troops and may take up to nine troop choices. You get hammer of wrath for units with more than 10 models, but you LOSE OBJECTIVE SECURED.

Good lord, what? The ork-specific detachment with nine troops choices DOESN'T have Objective Secured? I wonder what kinds of combat drugs are GW editors doing...

And yes, I agree with Adhemar on the point that it is getting harder to understand what might be intentional and what might not be, because with this edition they're going a little more crazier than before. They should honestly make some sort of "patch notes" or something, documenting all the changes instead of leaving them to guesswork. I still don't entirely understand how blast templates are supposed to work in multiple story ruins, same as how the dangerous terrain tests are taken if a model decides to jump off a tower... both of these problems exist merely because the rules that used to define them in previous editions simply do not exist anymore!

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PartridgeKing
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PostSubject: Re: Combined Arms confusion   Combined Arms confusion I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 12 2014, 12:10

I must say I think the ork-specific detachment not having Objective secured is kind of the point of it. The Combined Arms Detachement is meant to be a standard detachement that every army can use, and then codexes present alternatives to it, not detachements that are designed to completely replace it. If the Ork detachment did have objective secured then there would be no trade off or decision to be made between the Ork Detachement and the Combined Arms Detachment.

Seeing as there seems to be nothing to stop you having one Ork-specific Detachment and then one Combined Arms Detachment in your army it allows more complex list building as you make detachments - rather than just units - to fulfil certain battlefield roles. Have your big Ork Waagh with full 9 Troops choices to rampage across the board and hold objectives by sheer size and bulk excluding anyone else getting close to them, and hammer-of-wrathing people off objectives, and then possibly have a small 'elite' objective grabbing detachment, potentially in buggies or something fast to steal objectives away from people who are only defending them with elites.

Ork-specific the goal is to kill objectives clear.
CAD the goal is to use objective secured and more combined tactics to steal and hold objectives.

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bone idol
Slave
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PostSubject: Re: Combined Arms confusion   Combined Arms confusion I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 13 2014, 04:08

Regarding the new Ork detachment, all those troops do gain a brand new special rule for free. I wouldn't write that off as a poor deal at all. Have any of us faced that detachment yet (or traitorously played it). Remember also that this is the first 7th Ed codex published so far. We can expect more alternatives in the future - our upcoming codex too.
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PostSubject: Re: Combined Arms confusion   Combined Arms confusion I_icon_minitime

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