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Van3
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PostSubject: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 02:18

Hello everyone, first post so sorry if I botch this. Has anyone found ravagers to be no longer useful in 7th edition? The rules for a skimmer moving at "Cruising speed" (moving 6-12 inches) states that you can only fire 2 weapons at full BS and any remaining weapons with snap fire. What's everyone's thoughts and please if I have missed a rule somewhere let me know.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 02:25

@Van3 wrote:
Hello everyone, first post so sorry if I botch this. Has anyone found ravagers to be no longer useful in 7th edition? The rules for a skimmer moving at "Cruising speed" (moving 6-12 inches) states that you can only fire 2 weapons at full BS and any remaining weapons with snap fire. What's everyone's thoughts and please if I have missed a rule somewhere let me know.

Ariel assault allows you to shoot them all.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 02:27

our special rule overrides the BRB one, we can fire all weapons at full BS after moving Cruising speed, so not much of a change there

that said, they did take a 'slight' nurf in the jink department, but if you by flicker fields, the new jink rule can be a real boon, as it allows you to jink during turns of heavy fire
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Van3
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 02:56

Ok, thanks for clearing this up. Gives me small hope that I might use them now lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 10:04

Well, actually changes to lances did nerf them a bit.

Im looking more and more at a Razorwing.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 10:39

@Azdrubael wrote:
Well, actually changes to lances did nerf them a bit.

What changes to lances?

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 13:03

@Azdrubael wrote:
Well, actually changes to lances did nerf them a bit.

Im looking more and more at a Razorwing.

What about the lances of the voidraven? They got strenght 9, if I remember right.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 13:07

First game today and for me their role has changed slightly in that Ravagers are now my preferred MC/Heavy armoured infantry killers. I ran 2 w/ DLs and 2 w/ DCs. Taking FF on all

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 14:51

I've found them less useful in 7th more due to the new vehicle damage rules. It now requires an average of 27 shots to explode an AV12 dreadnaught, or 9 to glance it to death. The latter means that in order to destroy a single dreadnaught, you'd have to shoot an entire Heavy Support selection's worth of Ravagers at it. If that dreadnaught has 4+ cover, then those 3 Ravagers will have to spend 2 turns shooting the thing before it dies.

However, saying that, I'd probably continue using Ravagers simply because we don't have many alternatives (not counting allies).
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 16:39

This is the reason I posted in another entry that wyches may be a new preferred choice of tank busters. 5 in a venom with a 4+ jink, pray for night fight for a 3+ first turn. My lists, I am finding are more effective now as almost all assault oriented. I bring the ravager as a deterent and a possible hull point/ stun support now. I use to hope for an explodes but I now aim for making vehicles snap fire. Anything else is extra. An alternative I am toying with is putting torment grenade launchers on all my raiders and being big squads of haywire wyches for tanks an tarp it units. To me it's turned into a "slow my opponent down" game.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 19:48

I was never a big fan of dark lance spam and now I am really not. I am switching over to haywire tech on scourges, wychs, bikes and Talos. While they're shorter range, they're are more reliable glance-to-death strategy. With craters for blowed up vehicles going away, I'd rather glance something to death and have a wreck there for cover. Concentrated haywire blasters will remove any vehicle pretty quick. A few weeks ago my wychs took out a Knight with their haywire grenades in one turn.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 20:25

I'm not sure that they're "useless" or got "nerfed". They are still one of the cheapest tank hunters three shots, Fast, Skimmer, lances. I view this more along the lines of all vehicles got slightly more resilient/Ravagers are still DIRT cheap for what they do.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 20:28

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
They are still one of the cheapest tank hunters

If only they had that rule.  Wink 
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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 20:41

@The Shredder wrote:
@Evil Space Elves wrote:
They are still one of the cheapest tank hunters

If only they had that rule.  Wink 
YEAH! They don't have Armourbane or Master Crafted either so they must suck!  Razz 

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 20:51

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
YEAH! They don't have Armourbane or Master Crafted either so they must suck!  Razz 

Yeah, I mean, a Ravager only has to spend 3 turns firing at a dreadnaught to destroy it (and that's outside of cover). That's some splendid anti-vehicle weaponry right there.  Neutral 
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Braden Campbell
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 21:22

Has the Reaper's stock risen in value then, since it can haywire at range?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 21:25

@Braden Campbell wrote:
Has the Reaper's stock risen in value then, since it can haywire at range?

Sorry, what's the Reaper?
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 21:41

@The Shredder wrote:
Sorry, what's the Reaper?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Dark_Eldar/DARK_ELDAR_REAPER.html
Or FW-made boat with the biggest Haywire Blaster in town.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 21:53

@Korwey wrote:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Dark_Eldar/DARK_ELDAR_REAPER.html
Or FW-made boat with the biggest Haywire Blaster in town.

Ah, interesting.

Is it the same size as a normal Raider/Ravager? If so, it seems like you could could do a conversion pretty easily...

In any case, it might be worth considering - since its weapon looks a lot more effective against Vehicles than attempting to Dark Lance them.

My main concern is that you're paying a lot of points for a single shot that isn't twin-linked.

But, just looking at the stats, my instinct is that I would take 3 of these over 3 ravagers.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 23:07

Reaper looks phenomenal against IG parking lots/Russ spam armies. Point a template that pretty much can't miss...

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 23:12

I think if your wasting Ravager shots on a Dreadnought you've already messed up. Even in 5th and 6th, a 5 man squad of wyches w/HWG were better against a dread. While they still have the issues, they're cheap enough to take 3 and still have points for flyers. They're still fast enough to get good angles of fire on targets. And still can take down MCs/AV13-14 better then most AT. AP2 usefulness has gone up, they're survivability went up.

I don't see the Reapers as an alternative but could be useful as a addition to Ravagers. I do agree with Shredder that they are pricey for a single shot. I think its in the same boat as the Ravager where you'll need a few to make them useful. I'd rather run 3 Ravagers and 2 Voidravens over Reapers.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 08 2014, 23:17

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
Reaper looks phenomenal against IG parking lots/Russ spam armies. Point a template that pretty much can't miss...

Wouldn't you want to use the stronger shot though?

I'd rather try and take out his vehicles one at a time with d3 glancing hits (and the S7 hit, if the vehicle isn't AV14) - rather than relying on a blast (which, at best, will strip one hull point off a few different vehicles).

@KabaliteSon wrote:
I think if your wasting Ravager shots on a Dreadnought you've already messed up. Even in 5th and 6th, a 5 man squad of wyches w/HWG were better against a dread.

And, as we all know, wyches can instantly teleport to the other side of the field and assault a dread on the back table edge on turn 1.  Rolling Eyes

Less sarcastically - this might work for CC dreadnaughts, but try it against a Psyfulman and I don't think it will work as well. Maybe on turn 3 you'll assault and kill it, but that's 2-3 turns of it shooting down your vehicles with impunity.

Reliability is important, but so is the time-frame. I mean, if you've killed the dreadnaught with wyches, but its killed 2-3 of your vehicles in the meantime, then its probably already done its job. Also, there's the problem that wyches can be shot down without too much trouble.

There are some targets where you really can't afford to leave alive until wyches can engage them.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 09 2014, 01:04

We can reliably get there turn 2. 30" move turn 1, jink for a 4+. Then your 12" move and 8" on a decent fleet charge. If you give them some support fire to strip a hullpoint before they get there it should be dead that turn. Reavers w/HL can get in the back field as well. Were probably SOL anyways when people start taking 6 dreads at 1850.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 09 2014, 04:16

I dont think any of it is that big of a deal.  a new edition comes out and the community says the sky is falling.  I agree that ravagers are dirt cheap, however, they dont get the job done.  They do however, scare our opponents still.  I have always said from the time I truly learned how to play DE, that a BIG part of our army is scare tactics.  Learning to play the OPPONENT, more than the models hes fielding.  With that being said, people still HATE our lances and cant seem to help but shoot at our ravagers.  Its an annoyance that HAS to be dealt with.  Theyre still worth their points in the mere fact that it allows our other troops to get across the board.  I will be fielding one or two just for people to shoot at pretty much, also to cause snap shots.  

All of my troops will pretty much now be haywire wyches and wracks. If the wyches get to a tank, theyll destroy it.  If they get to some troops, they will tie them up.  venoms, reavers, and wracks clean up the mess.  

our army is one of the few that is extremely adaptable to most situations..... except flamers lol.  The sky isnt falling peeps, we just need to think outside the box.  We have always had an outside the box army.  

sorry for the rant, i just have read lots of doom and gloom posts lately. I find it exciting.  TBH i was getting tired of my lists that i had for 6th.  They worked really well and I pretty much ran my META but now I get to try and out-think my opponents again.  =)  hence why I think TGL's are such a great new thing, I wish i wouldve perfected using them before.  I face Eldar the other night and ran my raiders right to him, 1 bit the dust but the others gave him -3 to his leadership for 2 of his troops, I caused a leadership with 4 venoms firing and they ran off the board.  5 point upgrades and BAM crippled him.

EDIT: and to add to the ravager situation, I have recently started running dissy ravagers instead, leaving the tank busting completely to my wyches, it has done pretty well.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers useless in 7th?   Ravagers useless in 7th? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 09 2014, 07:40

@doomseer11b wrote:
 I face Eldar the other night and ran my raiders right to him, 1 bit the dust but the others gave him -3 to his leadership for 2 of his troops, I caused a leadership with 4 venoms firing and they ran off the board.  5 point upgrades and BAM crippled him.
 

How did you gave him a -3 to his LD. TGL's effect is not cumulative! It's just -1 for one or more TGLs within 6".
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