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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 03:16

So what is everyone doing to combat this issue. we now need 6's with all of our, once amazing, dark lances. so not only do we need to hit on 3's first, they "usually" glance on 4's (that would be a 50% chance, I say this becuz thats easy to figure out and I suck at math, math is very much a part of my "axis of evil"), IF we get a 5 or 6, then we need to hit a 6 to explode. without knowing how to change a continuum transfunctioner into a quadratic equation using a simple flux capacitor, its not hard to figure out that our chances of blowing a vehicle up is now an extremely difficult thing to do.

now that our raiders are a little more durable, what is everyone doing in response to this new change? wyches with HWG doesnt seem such a bad idea anymore. could this be a rise in cult lists again? what is y'alls opinion?

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Dethric
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 03:30

Yerp, that is true the chance has been lowered. The math for explodes is:
Before: 2/3*1/3*1/3=2/27
Now: 2/3*1/3*1/6=2/54=1/27

I would not use the word "Extremly difficult" though, bringing down an invisible Riptide is "Extremly hard" (Marines shooting Lascannons: 1/6*5/6*1/2*2/3=10/216, which is about 25 Lascannon shots PER WOUND, meaning about 125 Lascannon shots to bring it down, and it gets worse with for example Tzeentch Daemon Princes with Cursed Earth and Iron Arm)

So half the chance to get a explodes.
For me, this is not too bad, I would aim for stripping hull points and if I get an Explodes result, I will just use the remaining shots for something else.

For me the more durable raiders are very nice, it means that I can invest in 4 Grotesques and run them with a Haemonoculus or Urien and use that for anti light/med tank and focus my lances on heavier stuff. Together with my newly built Talos with either a TL HW blaster or a Heat lance and 5 Scourges with 2 HW blasters i think i will be fine.
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 04:02

scourges huh?  I havent had much luck with them.  Or the talos for that matter.  7th is really going to make me change my take on this game.  currently at 1750 I have an anti-pysker list.  1 haemy with crucible loaded in a raider with torment grenade lauchers with 9 wracks (2 of these).  2 other wych squads with HWG and torment grenade lauchers (TGL), a warrior squad in a venom, 3 3 man trueborn squads with splinter cannons in venoms and 2 ravagers with FF.  thats roughly 7 venoms shooting, with 3 empty venoms, and a way to deal with psychic heavy armies.  

im not sure 7th has done anything in the way of making scourges any more viable IMHO.  the problem i see with the talos is, he competes with ravagers that can stun vehicles first turn (at a minimum).  lemme know how it works for you though, maybe im missing something.  and please give me your take on my list.

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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 04:08

I'm not sure of TGL and Crucible of Malediction as discussed in another thread:

https://www.thedarkcity.net/t9370-crucible-of-malediction

Except those, I like your list.
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 04:49

Assault and allies. Dark light no longer cuts it. I use only a few lances now since they are still handy for high av stuff I might not want to close with (imperial knights and similar) and things like broadsides.
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 05:21

I have played 2 7th Ed games and have had decisive victories. My goal is to run all my melee at my opponent while my Trueborne sit unmolested in my backfield on top objectives. I run Urien with 3 Grots in a raider, A Beastmaster pack with the Baron, 2 squads of 8 Wyches with Hatwire in Raiders, and just to be safe I give my 2 squads of Trueborn Haywire. So far I have been able to wreck vehicles pretty well. This whole not blowing up in our space Pintos thing is a big time boost for us.
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 06:36

@Dethric wrote:
For me, this is not too bad, I would aim for stripping hull points and if I get an Explodes result, I will just use the remaining shots for something else.

This sums it up for me. As far as I'm concerned, dark lances are useful to strip hull points at range, something unfortunately hard to come by on haywire, and occasionally offing a wise guy with 2+ save.

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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 09:48

Personally, I'm sticking with Flickerfields. Ok the zave is slightly worse than Jink, but at least I get to fire normally!

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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 11:35

Definitely aiming for stripping hull points. Much easier. On all but a select few vehicles, any kind of damage result is 1/3 of the way to getting rid of it. Only things with 4 hull points are Land Raider variants, Soul Grinders, Defilers, both Necron Arks, Monolith, and the Battlewagon.

Also remember that you can essentially 'shake-lock' vehicles; reducing them to snap-shots only which cuts the effectiveness of most vehicles to a quarter of what it usually is.

@Squidmaster, you're probably better off with flickerfields on ravagers, but jink on raiders as only being able to snap-fire a single dark lance isn't the end of the world; passengers inside can still fire at full effect.

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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 05 2014, 11:52

@doomseer11b wrote:
So what is everyone doing to combat this issue. we now need 6's with all of our, once amazing, dark lances.

Let's not kid ourselves, shall we? Dark Lances were never good. Against anything other than AV14, they're just bad Lascannons. And, even against AV14, whoop-de-do we now only need 5s to wound - I love needing to fire basically 5 shots to average a single penetrating hit. And, the problem only gets worse if you're against vehicles that are already AV12.

What's worse is that Dark Lances are apparently so powerful that they warp space around them, and hungrily devour all other anti-vehicle weapons.

Would you like something for light armour? Like an assault cannon or Scatterlaser? Tough - you'll just have to waste single dark lance shots taking our rhinos.

How about something with a really good chance of destroying vehicles - like a meltagun or multi-melta? Tough - you can just have a short-range dark lance. Also, it will cost 3 times what a meltagun costs, because you're not marines.

Now, I know melta weapons are technical available, but a) they're apparently so rare that not even our elite trueborn can access them (let alone our troops or vehicles), and b) they're outright worse than marine meltas (but still more expensive, obviously) for no good reason.

[/RANT]

Anyway, that aside, I really don't have an answer at the moment (other than 'wait for a new codex and hope whoever writes it doesn't see Dark Lances as the be-all and end-all of anti-tank weapons'). For my first games of 7th, I was trying a list similar to my 6th edition ones (transport-heavy and focussed on shooting). In a recent game against mechanised-GKs, I conceded on turn 2 - having lost all my dark lances and with my blasterborn stranded. Unfortunately, whilst jinking hadn't saved my vehicles from autocannons and psycannons, the new vehicle table and some cover meant my dark lances hadn't destroyed a single one of his vehicles.
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 05 2014, 12:26

Let's face it... we're ill equipped to deal with armor at range unless it's a land raider or unless we can deep strike behind them. Outside of allies, our only option is to deal with them in assault. Haywire wyches, Grotesques and beastpack (supported by a few dark lances here and there) are our best bet.

This is not ideal, especially against transport (because you won't be able to get a turn of shooting against their passenger) but it's was work best for us at the moment.
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 05 2014, 12:56

@Deamon wrote:
Let's face it... we're ill equipped to deal with armor at range unless it's a land raider or unless we can deep strike behind them.  Outside of allies, our only option is to deal with them in assault.  Haywire wyches, Grotesques and beastpack (supported by a few dark lances here and there) are our best bet.

I guess we could use several suicide wych squads (with HWG) and rely on their transports to score objectives.
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 05 2014, 13:43

Yeah, TBH lances have never done much for me.... Ever even when I was an Eldar player in 5th edition.  The only reason I ever brought ravages (I usually brought 1 maybe 2) was more of a scare tactic for my opponents.  The real vehicle killers were my wychs.  My current list is as follows (also posted this in another post)

Haemy- crucible and venom blade
Haemy- crucible and venom blade

Trueborn- 3 man unit with splinter cannons and venom x3 same units

Wracks 8 man units, in a raider (with 1 haemy) with torment grenade launchers x2 same units

Wyches- 8 woman units with haywire grenades in raider with torment grenade launchers x2

Warrior squad in a venom no upgrades

9 man reaver squad with caltrops

1 ravager

I'm iffy on the ravager, but the list pretty much works having the 2 wrack squads and 2 wych squads run up the board towards psykers if they have them, for 2nd turn crucible opening with the TGL's giving a "hopeful" -4 to leadership.  The rest is self explanatory.  

I also have found that 1st turn alpha strike is really a good way to go now.  I used to prefer going second but now being. Able to jink without moving (immobilized vehicles included) it's better I think to be as aggressive as possible.  I feel the days of move and shoot move and shoot are not dead to us but a little less viable.  I won't be surprised if if we see much more assault oriented DE lists.  Also, night fight just gave us a pretty big boost as well.  Basically giving us stealth even if we're an inch away.  So come on first turn 3+ jink saves!!!  Even if I had first turn in 6th I always set up as if I was going second.  Now my posture will be much much more aggressive, utilize first turn jink (and NF) as much as possible.

EDITED: just realized I already posted my list in this post. Lol oh well, READ IT AGAIN!!! Jk cheers

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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 05 2014, 14:14

Actually you can take only one crucible in your army

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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 05 2014, 14:33

NOOOO, seriously??? Missed that. Never used them before

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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 05 2014, 16:12

2 units of wyches and 1 single ravager?

That list would get thrashed in my meta with all the AM tank army...
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 05 2014, 16:21

Out of interest, doomseer11b, does your list not struggle at all against lists with lots of vehicles?

I mean, your wych units should be able to take down pretty much any vehicle, but you only have 2 such units. And, after they take down a vehicle, it seems very unlikely that 8 models with 6+ armour will survive long enough to take down another. Same if their vehicle is shot down before they make it to combat.

And, after that, you only have 7 dark lances (which, sadly, isn't worth much these days).

Am I missing something?  Neutral 
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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 05 2014, 18:50

Well no you're not missing anything. However, both wrack squads would have FC so they could still take care of tanks. And it's not a nasty competitive build, it's just something I threw together to combat pyskers. Kind of my first stab at it. Hard to believe it would get thrashed however, if you rush and flood the board it should do "decent."

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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 05 2014, 18:56

Here's a 2k 7th edition list I've brewed. Has plenty of anti tank and anti infantry.

HQ:

Haemunculus, venom blade, liquifier

Baron Sathonyx


Troops:
10 Wracks, 2 liquifier; raider
10 Wracks, 2 liquifier; raider
5 wracks, liquifier; venom, dual splinter cannon
5 wracks, liquifier; venom, dual splinter cannon


Elites:
3 Trueborn,2 splinter cannon; Venom, dual splinter cannon
3 Trueborn, 2 splinter cannon; Venom, dual splinter cannon
4 grotesques, liquifier; Raider (with haemy)


Fast Attack:
5 Beastmasters
-8 khymera
-6 Razorwing flocks

Transports:
Raider, Dark Lance
Raider, Dark Lance
Raider, Dark Lance
Venom, Dual splinter cannon
Venom, Dual splinter cannon
Venom, Dual splinter cannon
Venom, Dual splinter cannon


Heavy Support:
Ravager, Triple Dark Lance
Ravager, Triple Dark Lance
Ravager, Triple Dark Lance
Talos Pain Engine, splinter cannon, liquifier
Talos Pain Engine, splinter cannon, liquifier
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 06 2014, 05:46

[EDIT]I know this forum is dedicated to sadistic evil elves, but we do need to keep the postings family-friendly here.
Begin Rant.

Darklances and blasters should be cheaper than lascannon and meltaguns respectively because they come on more fragile platforms ie. DE infantry/bikes.

This will never happen because SPESS MUHREENS!!! and the kiddies would throw a tantrum.

The haywire blaster should be more along the lines of the voltaic staff thing the crons have, which is amazing by the way. One is an assault rifle the other is a water pistol, guess which one we get!

Every time I compare the two I feel insulted and robbed!

End Rant... for now.
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 06 2014, 06:55

I've given up on one-shotting vehicles. Hull points are the 'it' thing now. I've relegated 'explodes' results from my DE shooting to the 'very lucky break' column. At this point, I've accepted stripping HP as the way to go. To that end, the Dark Eldar are actually kind of lucky, since a lot of our units are good second-tier anti vehicle forces.

To whit:
Grotesques- Particularly Rakarth's Wreckers. 3 attacks on the charge, at Strength 5-7, is nothing to sneeze at. And they're pretty damn durable to boot. Throwing an aberration into the mix along with a haemmy minder ensures they will begin the game with a +1 Strength on the charge as well as more opportunities to do the Look Out Sir! shell-game with the wounds that DO get through.

Haywyches - Not the most durable unit, but if you keep them cheap they can make a great 'janitor' unit, mopping up the one lone survivor from your other shooting salvos. Giving them Haywire grenades ensures that they will be able to take on any vehicle targets of opportunity as well. If you're looking to keep them cheap, then five of them with no additional upgrades in a Venom is a nice 'filler' for your roster.

Talos - Smash may have been neutered, but he's still ST7, which is nothing to shake a stick at. If you go the mass-attacks route, you can forgo the need to blow the vehicle up in favor of just wrecking the crap out of it. With 1d6+2 (roll two, take the highest) attacks on the charge, he also serves double duty as a fire-sump, since Monstrous Creatures tend to draw an inordinate amount of fear from players.

Hellions - At St4, they can already glance many vehicles to death through sheer weight of attacks when they charge. When you add in additional strength buffs from Grave Lotus or having two pain tokens, they can get downright brutal to armored units. And the Baron doesn't even need such bangles. At St6 on the charge out of the gate, he's a credible threat by himself, with Furious Charge only making it worse once he racks up some Pain Tokens.

Ravagers - I admit they aren't the workhorse of the army that once they were, but 3 Dark Lance shots at a hefty range can put quite a bit of hurt on enemy vehicles. We may not be able to down them in one turn any more, but a penetrating hit will usually reduce most target's capacity for destruction a little, if not neutralize it temporarily. And of course, these hull point losses set the target up for destruction at the hands of one of your second-string wonders.

Reavers - I almost don't bother taking the Heat Lance anymore, but it still makes a good ace in the hole (especially against vehicles that can't Jink or negate the hit). Cluster Caltrops and Blade Vanes can add in some tasty HP stripping ability, and with the Turbo Boost you can often position yourself out of range of a counterattack, if not out of Line of Sight entirely!

In any event, these are some of the units that have been working well for me. I hope this helps somewhat.
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 06 2014, 07:28

couple discrepancies but nice rundown:

GROTS get 4 attacks on the charge as they have a base stat of 3.

REAVERS caltrops and bladevanes can only hit infantry models, sadly they cannot use this attack against models with an AV.


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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 06 2014, 10:36

@Painjunky wrote:
Darklances and blasters should be cheaper than lascannon and meltaguns respectively because they come on more fragile platforms ie. DE infantry/bikes.

Also, Dark Lances are worse than Lascannons 90% of the time, and (on infantry models) impare the movement of what is supposed to be a very mobile army.

@Painjunky wrote:

This will never happen because SPESS MUHREENS!!! and the kiddies would throw a tantrum.

I once read an article along those same lines (though I haven't been able to find it again), basically explaining how furious most SM players are when another race gets something good.

@Painjunky wrote:
The haywire blaster should be more along the lines of the voltaic staff thing the crons have, which is amazing by the way. One is an assault rifle the other is a water pistol, guess which one we get!

Every time I compare the two I feel insulted and robbed!

I think the other problem is that our Haywire Blaster is not only limited in shots (to a pretty ludicrous degree), but the only unit capable of carrying it can only take 2 per 5 men. The other three men have to carry a gun which is incapable of scratching even AV10. This just seems like bad design to me.

Again, compare that to Necrons - I can only have 2 of those weapons in a unit, but that gives me 4x the shots *and* I can put them in a unit with gauss - so the rest of the unit isn't forced to waste its shots.

So, why can I not upgrade all my Scourges with Haywire Blasters? I mean, 5 scourges would still have close to half the shots of 2 Storm Crypteks, so it hardly screams OP. And, outside of vehicles, they're welding one-shot, S4 AP- guns. Terrifying.  Rolling Eyes 
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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 06 2014, 12:13

I totally agree with Jimsolo about close combat anti-vehicle options. But he forgot about the beasts.
They eat enemy tanks quite well, especially when led by Baron and Jetseer (witchblade is S3 but armorbane).
Usually people take 10 Khymerae, what gives you 40 attack on charge. Of course it is effective against only AV10, but most of vehicles have such a rear armor.
However if you will speculate on the Power from pain rule, all the specification of that rule are gone from our FAQ and your beasts can benefit from pain tokes, so Khymerae have a chance to get S5.

Baron also hits with S6 on charge.

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PostSubject: Re: the whole vehicle damage situation...... :(   the whole vehicle damage situation...... :( I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 07 2014, 04:55

@doomseer11b wrote:

GROTS get 4 attacks on the charge as they have a base stat of 3.  

REAVERS caltrops and bladevanes can only hit infantry models, sadly they cannot use this attack against models with an AV.

A- Indeed they do. My bad, thanks for picking that up.

B- Well sonofagun. Noted. Need to apologize to a couple of people now...

C- Seraff, good one. I totally forgot about beasts. Rending attacks are just grotesque.
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