THE DARK CITY
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.



 
HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityRegisterLog in

 

 Shadowfield and FnP

Go down 
+19
Izathel
Aroshamash
aurynn
Thor665
Unholyllama
AvInNebr
Axel115
Crazy_Ivan
Zenotaph
Dragontree
MyNameDidntFit
Panic_Puppet
Silverglade
Crazy_Irish
MurDok
Jimsolo
Laughingcarp
Count Adhemar
DarkCycu
23 posters
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
DarkCycu
Hellion
DarkCycu

Posts : 51
Join date : 2013-01-29

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 01 2014, 21:31

I have a quick but very disturbing question.

We have a situation. Archon fails SF inv. but the FnP roll is passed, does that mean SF will be still working as passed PnP discounts the unsaved wound ?
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

Posts : 7568
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 01 2014, 21:54

This one's a bit murky but I'd have to say that the shadowfield still goes kaput. FNP says that if you make the roll you "treat it as having been saved" but the shadowfield is destroyed "if the save is ever failed" and the triggering factor for FNP is when the model "suffers an unsaved Wound". So in order to take the FNP you have to have failed the save and therefore the shadowfield shorts out.

_________________
Shadowfield and FnP YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
Laughingcarp
Wych
Laughingcarp

Posts : 562
Join date : 2013-09-03
Location : The insane asylum of the universe

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 01 2014, 23:22

Seconded

_________________
I dedicate these deaths to Odin Allfather, Spearshaker, One Eye.
Fleet Shadowmaker - Kabal of the Dying Sun; Cult of Marrow Excised; Coven of Lambent Hunger
Sons of the Last Breath - Chaos Space Marines
Host of Shattered Purity - Chaos Daemons
Back to top Go down
Jimsolo
Dracon
Jimsolo

Posts : 3212
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 00:57

I'll go ahead and disagree.

If you make the FNP roll, you treat the wound as having been saved.

If the wound save is made, would the Shadow Field break? It would not. Therefore, if the FNP roll goes off, the Shadow Field remains.

At least, that's how the rules are currently written.
Back to top Go down
MurDok
Kabalite Warrior
MurDok

Posts : 220
Join date : 2013-07-24

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 03:50

The shadowfield failed causing a unsaved wound allowing you to do a FnP roll. I'm agreeing w/ Count and Carp on this one.

_________________
~Current Armies~
Deldar
Eldar
Adeptus Mechanicus - Taghmata Omnissiah & Legio Cybernetica
Back to top Go down
Jimsolo
Dracon
Jimsolo

Posts : 3212
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 04:47

Okay...but the FNP rules tell you to treat the wound as having been saved. If you treat the Shadowfield as dropped, you aren't doing that.
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

Posts : 7568
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 09:06

@Jimsolo wrote:
Okay...but the FNP rules tell you to treat the wound as having been saved.  If you treat the Shadowfield as dropped, you aren't doing that.  

In which case you wouldn't be entitled to a FNP roll in the first place. But then you'd have taken an unsaved wound, which means you could roll for FNP...and then the universe implodes.

_________________
Shadowfield and FnP YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
DarkCycu
Hellion
DarkCycu

Posts : 51
Join date : 2013-01-29

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 10:08

Thank You for Your response. To sum it up, I fail the 2++ pass FnP, but after that I have to fight with mighty 5+ Smile but with full wounds. Smile
Back to top Go down
Crazy_Irish
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 494
Join date : 2011-05-28
Location : Huntsville, Al

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 10:56

@DarkCycu wrote:
Thank You for Your response. To sum it up, I fail the 2++ pass FnP, but after that  I have to fight with mighty 5+ :)but with full wounds. Smile

Yes, indeed.

_________________
...What about a Bastion made out of Guardsmen as some form of sick sarcasm?...Or a Fortress of Redemption made out of Dark Angels - Sky Serpent
Back to top Go down
Jimsolo
Dracon
Jimsolo

Posts : 3212
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 22:44

With the exception of Force weapons, is there any other instance of a ruling this way? Every other effect-upon-an-unsaved wound I'm aware of does not activate if the FNP is successful.
Back to top Go down
DarkCycu
Hellion
DarkCycu

Posts : 51
Join date : 2013-01-29

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 23:12

For example necron entropic weapon effect. But regarding SF it seems quite logical.
Back to top Go down
Silverglade
Wych
Silverglade

Posts : 521
Join date : 2012-12-30

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 02:38

Logical or not, i am with Jimsolo here. The RAW says you treat it as having been saved. Therefore your shadowfield is fine IMO.

RAI i would lean towards the alternate view presented.
Back to top Go down
Jimsolo
Dracon
Jimsolo

Posts : 3212
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 06:09

I think there is definitely enough wiggle room in the RAI to argue the point. Much like the whole 'is the ram part of the hull' issue, I think I will let my opponent decide in friendly games.  In competitive play, unless a TO rules otherwise, I'm playing it RAW.
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

Posts : 7568
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 07:17

@Jimsolo wrote:
I think there is definitely enough wiggle room in the RAI to argue the point.  Much like the whole 'is the ram part of the hull' issue, I think I will let my opponent decide in friendly games.  In competitive play, unless a TO rules otherwise, I'm playing it RAW.

It's a completely paradoxical rule. In order to roll for FNP you have to have taken a wound, which means that your shadowfield has failed. Yet, if you succeed, you haven't taken a wound, which means you weren't entitled to FNP, which means you've taken a wound, which means you can roll FNP...

As I said in the first post, it's a bit murky but I agree with what you say above. Friendly games, play it however you want and in tournaments, check with the TO.

Just as a last point, from a purely fluffy perspective it makes no sense for FNP to affect a shadowfield. FNP just means shrugging off the effects of a wound, not that it never happened.

_________________
Shadowfield and FnP YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
DarkCycu
Hellion
DarkCycu

Posts : 51
Join date : 2013-01-29

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 10:21

To be honest, first i thought, WOW, FnP can make SF so much better. Later, on one hand, thanks to Count, i've taken his point of view as SF has its own rules, 2+ on 1 it fails and cannot be used any more. But on the other, FnP is something that should have some FAQ in conjunction with e.g. SF, just for the sake of clarification.
Back to top Go down
Panic_Puppet
Wych
avatar

Posts : 506
Join date : 2012-12-30

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 11:58

Feel no Pain wording is "the unsaved wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved". I'd come down on the side that it can't be used, because you treat the wound as having been saved, not the save as having been passed. Subtle but distinct difference. If the wording was 'treat the save as having been passed' instead, I'd argue that the shadow field should be kept.

The 'treat it as having been saved' part is intended as a clarification, but in this specific case it just serves as a complication that muddies the waters. RAW - ambiguous. HIWPI - no shadowfield.


_________________
Shadowfield and FnP TDxlYzL
Back to top Go down
MyNameDidntFit
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 140
Join date : 2014-05-13

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 14:18

I would certainly the side of P_P's post here.

I wouldn't dream of trying to put this past another player unless they were the filthiest of rules-lawyering scoundrels, themselves.

_________________
Shadowfield and FnP Tdc-li11
Back to top Go down
Crazy_Irish
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 494
Join date : 2011-05-28
Location : Huntsville, Al

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 14:55

I really don't see the big issue. If you fail the shadow field, bang it's broken. Then after you tossed away the broken thing, you go and take the FNP roll. FNP only changes the outcome but the fact remains, that you broke the shadow field.

_________________
...What about a Bastion made out of Guardsmen as some form of sick sarcasm?...Or a Fortress of Redemption made out of Dark Angels - Sky Serpent
Back to top Go down
Jimsolo
Dracon
Jimsolo

Posts : 3212
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 15:27

[quote="Count Adhemar"]
@Jimsolo wrote:
Just as a last point, from a purely fluffy perspective it makes no sense for FNP to affect a shadowfield. FNP just means shrugging off the effects of a wound, not that it never happened.

On that score, I am in complete agreement. Unfortunately, there is a voluminous body of examples where the rules defy both fluff and real-world logic.

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
Feel no Pain wording is "the unsaved wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved". I'd come down on the side that it can't be used, because you treat the wound as having been saved, not the save as having been passed. Subtle but distinct difference. If the wording was 'treat the save as having been passed' instead, I'd argue that the shadow field should be kept.

The 'treat it as having been saved' part is intended as a clarification, but in this specific case it just serves as a complication that muddies the waters. RAW - ambiguous. HIWPI - no shadowfield.

I'm afraid I'm not picking up what you're laying down, brother.  Smile  In order to save a wound, you have to pass the save. The two seem pretty interchangeable to me. Maybe I'm just not getting it.
Back to top Go down
Dragontree
Wych
Dragontree

Posts : 521
Join date : 2013-11-15
Location : Bristol

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 15:49

I suppose you could put it this way.

Treating him as though he are your brother does not make him your brother.

He is your brother.

These are equivalent to:

Treat the save as if it was passed and

The save was passed.

So treating it as though it was passed would mean you have no wound but save was 'actually' failed. and the shadow field shorted out.

Whereas if the wording was if you pass FnP then the save was passed you would say the shadowfield was still up.


That analogy may not be as simple as I thought it was in my head.
Back to top Go down
Zenotaph
Wych
Zenotaph

Posts : 766
Join date : 2014-04-22
Location : Munich/Bavaria

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 16:05

See it that way: You wouldn't have to use FnP, when your shadowfield had saved you.
The FnP is just the cause, the wound doesn't affect the wearer.

_________________
When I'm good, I'm very, very good. But when I'm bad I'm better.
Back to top Go down
Dragontree
Wych
Dragontree

Posts : 521
Join date : 2013-11-15
Location : Bristol

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 16:13

No, because it goes like this.

Wound caused - shadowfield failed - wound taken - FnP passed - treat wound as if saved.

The wound is not actually saved, you just treat it as such. The wound is still taken just shrugged off through super human abilities or will power.


Treat I think is the key word here.


As per my previous example:

Treating someone as though they are your brother does not make them your brother.


I certainly wouldn't ever try to pull this on someone, seems a bit of a fast one playing word circles.
Back to top Go down
Zenotaph
Wych
Zenotaph

Posts : 766
Join date : 2014-04-22
Location : Munich/Bavaria

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 16:16

Isn't that, what I tried to say?

_________________
When I'm good, I'm very, very good. But when I'm bad I'm better.
Back to top Go down
Dragontree
Wych
Dragontree

Posts : 521
Join date : 2013-11-15
Location : Bristol

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 16:17

Oh sorry, I totally rage rush read your post and misunderstood it!

 Embarassed I am ashamed and profoundly apologise

_________________
Ave Dominus Nox - Brothers of Nostramo Night Lords Plog

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
it's the Starsky and Hutch venom! but I'm kinda ok with that
Back to top Go down
Zenotaph
Wych
Zenotaph

Posts : 766
Join date : 2014-04-22
Location : Munich/Bavaria

Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 16:26

Ah, great! At first, I thought, I've translated it wrong. No need, to apologize, though.

_________________
When I'm good, I'm very, very good. But when I'm bad I'm better.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Shadowfield and FnP Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Shadowfield and FnP I_icon_minitime

Back to top Go down
 
Shadowfield and FnP
Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Rules: Queries & Questions
-
Jump to: