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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 01 2014, 19:59

lelith and jain zar together in a raider.....  bam nuff said.  a league apart with jain zar's minus 5 to weapon skill!!!!

MODS please move to tactics. sorry posted in wrong spot

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Starkadder
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 01 2014, 20:39

A lot of points invested in one squad!

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 01 2014, 21:55

Moved to tactics - Count Adhemar

Mod hat off. Lelith's weakness is still her.. weakness. S3 sucks big time. Still, would be good to see!

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 00:59

Would Misfortune help that out at all, you think?

And in the last edition of FAQ's, am I delusional in thinking that Lelith had been FAQ'ed so that A League Apart only applied to the model's base weapon skill?
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alexwellace
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 01:13

No, misfortune would not help in anyway i can see.

Both Jain Zar and Lelith both ignore armour saves, so unless you are charging a vehicle what use would rending be?

Do you mean Doom? That on the other hand would help a lot!
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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 02:10

well, against a regular squad of space marines or termies, she would get an additional 8 attacks. I dont have my book on me right now, but im pretty sure she has 7 attacks on the charge??? so thats 15 attacks + whatever jain zar does. I really dont think anyone would make it out alive. you could also, throw some incubi in there to make it super duper overkill lol. 8 incubi, jain zar, and lelith??? they all ignore armor and all have really good saves. however, youre correct in Adhemar, T3 really hurts. HEY while were at it, throw Vect in there as well, 7 incubi, lelith, jain zar and asdrubael! granted thats like an 800 point unit W/O a transport lol.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 04:50

The theory here is that Jain Zar reduces the WS of all enemies by 5 or 6, which would consequently give Lelith Hesperax a larger number of attacks from her A League Apart ability. (In the case of Space Marines, 3 extra.)

And yeah, my bad, I meant Doom.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 05:31

With the cost of the Raider that is 400 points just for the two of them and a transport, which is a bit of a screaming 'shoot me first' sort of flag.

It also suffers against a certain pile of targets insomuch as it's a lot of Str 3-4 hits. So it's pretty good at sawing apart basic infantry but an MC or Dread will be a brick wall, though they might be able to whittle some of them...

I can think of more competitive ways to field 400 points, but I'll admit this looks fun. I'd probably be game to give it a whirl in a friendly game - just try to aim it into the right targets and it ought to work okay.

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 13:33

Arguably you could get them up to s4/5 on the charge with 2 pain tokens (as they removed the requirement for a model to have PfP in the FAQ to benefit). So, stick a couple of Haemonculi in there and you have a unit which...will never ever make its points back!

...unless someone is playing a similar deathstar against you...


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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 14:06

@doomseer11b wrote:
well, against a regular squad of space marines or termies, she would get an additional 8 attacks.  I dont have my book on me right now, but im pretty sure she has 7 attacks on the charge???  so thats 15 attacks + whatever jain zar does.  I really dont think anyone would make it out alive.

Best case scenario, Lelith (WS 9) vs Space Marines affected by Jain Zar's mask (WS 1). 8 bonus attacks on top of the 6 attacks she gets for charging = 14 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 4's with no armour saves allowed. That's 4.67 dead MEQ for 375 points of HQ models plus transport and accompanying unit. Jain Zar would add an awesome 3 dead MEQ to the deal and the rest of the unit would probably mop up any survivors...leaving the entire unit standing around in the open waiting to be shot up.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 17:47

Yeah, except those numbers don't particularly change if you attack, say, a Captain and his Honor Guard.

I don't think anyone is arguing it's a game breaker, I think the point is that it's fun and it works and it's not an embarrassing use of the points.

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Aroban
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 20:39

@doomseer11b wrote:
   8 incubi, jain zar, and lelith???  

Hellturkey would love that... he really would
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 22:51

Does Jain Zar have an Invulnerable save?
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 02 2014, 22:57

No, just a 2+ and EW.

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 01:34

Well, that might as well be an Invuln save, lol.
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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 02:00

I hear ya guys with the whole it would be a target thing. I dont think I would play this in a tourney.... well my gaming group i could prolly get away with it, but in a store tourney or a big tourney i dont think i would. It does seem like a lot of fun though. That being said, if you fortune the raider it may have some definite survivability. but still, T3 really hurts. so maybe put some grots in there with them? raise the overall T to a 5. still something i dont think i would play in a tourney. ill try it out in a fun game and give a report

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lelith
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 06:17

I agree that this would be very fun. Plus, I love Lelith (see my name) so I'm gonna use this unit for my next games with my friends.
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 03 2014, 09:00

@doomseer11b wrote:
I hear ya guys with the whole it would be a target thing.  I dont think I would play this in a tourney.... well my gaming group i could prolly get away with it, but in a store tourney or a big tourney i dont think i would.  It does seem like a lot of fun though.  That being said, if you fortune the raider it may have some definite survivability.  but still, T3 really hurts.  so maybe put some grots in there with them?  raise the overall T to a 5.  still something i dont think i would play in a tourney.  ill try it out in a fun game and give a report

Definitely get a pain token in there to start, FNP will increase durability reasonably well. If you get two then Lelith will be hitting at s4 on the charge and arguably JZ at s5.

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 02:07

It does look fun, if pricey.

For a budget alternative, stick a phantasm into a unit carrying Lelith. Now that you can throw defensive grenades with the Blind rule, you can reduce the enemy to WS 1, and have all the League Apart fun you can handle*!

*Assuming failed I test. What do you expect on a 10 pt budget?

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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 02:47

creeping darkness, the Blind rule would be redundant with jain zar in there. but good catch in having grenades, not sure if jain zar has them

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 06:37

Doomseer11b, I actually meant that you could save a bunch of points by taking a phantasm instead of Jain Zar Smile

Not as fun, I admit!

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 10:05

Just chuck a hekatrix with a phantasm in the pile!

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Mngwa
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 11:12

Never thought this combo but now I have to. Another 40k-list dream to add!

So question is, what else could be on a list with them? How many points should the list be? What else is in the raider with them?

I would probably not take this under 2000 points. It could be a heavy-melee list, with lots of wyches AV and maybe an archon with incubi. Add in additional ravagers and maybe some nice eldar heavy support, and it could work (somewhat).
What I would like to have with the ladies Lelith & Jain... I somehow feel Howling Banshees would be nice, maybe just 5 of them. In an emergency, Jain Zar could break up and take on a unit on her own (maybe a shooty unit, to tank overwatch) and Lelith can still get the bonus attacks if she goes somewhere else.
Other option could be bloodbrides. Oh dear, I really wish you could take two separate units and combine them for 5 howling banshees and 3 bloodbrides, add in the two special characters :3
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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 04 2014, 12:17

@doomseer11b wrote:
creeping darkness, the Blind rule would be redundant with jain zar in there.  but good catch in having grenades, not sure if jain zar has them

She doesn`t

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith star   Lelith star I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 05 2014, 04:37

I think Jain Zar, Lelith, and four Grots in a raider with terrorfex, grisly trophies, disentegrator would be pretty darn good. Now Add the Duke as a second HQ. All your stuff can DS too.

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