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 1750 Coven list, A few questions.

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Apophis
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PostSubject: 1750 Coven list, A few questions.   1750 Coven list, A few questions. I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 05 2011, 02:16

Hey guys, currently building coven list, I couldnt help myself after the new models came out. I'm going to only using units created/modified by Haemonculi. Any comments or ideas would be much appreciated as this is my first dark eldar army and would appreciate the input of any experienced players.

On to the list.

HQ

Haemonculus @ 75
Liquifier, Scissorhand

Attached to Grotesques.

Haemonculus @ 100
Liquifier, Venom Blade,
Webway Portal

Haemonculus @ 100
Liquifier, Venom Blade
Webway Portal

Attached to 1 x 8 man Wrack Squad each. 

Troops

8 Wracks @ 190
Liquifier 
Acothyst w Agoniser
Raider w Dark Lance, Flicker Field

8 Wracks @ 190
Liquifier
Acothyst w Agoniser
Raider w Dark Lance, Flicker Field

10 Wracks @ 220
2x Liquifier
Acothyst w Agoniser
Raider w Dark Lance, Flicker Field

Elites

7 Grotesques @ 250
Liquifier 
Aberration w Flesh Gauntlet 

Fast Attack

5 Scourges @ 130
2 x Haywire Blaster

5 Scourges @ 130
2 x Haywire Blaster

Heavy Support

Talos Pain Engine @ 120
Chainflails, Twin Linked Heat Lance

Talos Pain Engine @ 120
Chainflails, Twin Linked Heat Lance

Ravager @ 125
3 x Dark Lance or Disintegrator Cannon
Night Shield, Flicker Field

1750

Basically the 2 wwp haemoculi scoot up the field in the raiders and deliver their package, supported by 26 Wracks, scourges start on the field and hop up 12 inches and suppress any immediate armour threats, which I can hopefully pop with the raider dark lances. Wwp unleashes the squad of grots accompanied by the third Haemonculi, and the 2 talos, who will cause all kinds of mischief. I'm pretty happy with this so far, my main question was how to equip the ravager? Both the 3 x DL and 3 x Disintegrator Cannon are very attractive, the DL would start on the field and provide long ranged anti tank, definitely handy, but I cant look past the 3 Disintegrator Cannons. Holding this ravager in reserve, then entering from a table edge 12" and unleashing 9 str 5 ap 2 shots at 36" into my opponents heavy infantry (read terminators) is certainly going to make a mess.

Any thoughts or comments on my list or general tactics would be awesome, especially the ravager.
Cheers
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teknistmajjan
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 Coven list, A few questions.   1750 Coven list, A few questions. I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 05 2011, 04:11

Hey there.

Well there are a few things that could be improved i guess. To begin with you really could use more troops. Also some of the kitted units have to much things, the haemonculuses could be cheaper since you only have 3 units coming out of the webway, then one portal is enough.

I made a few changes in a list here, dont know if you like it but i should be improved.


haemonculus: wwp
haemonculus: liquifier

4 grotesques: liquifier, abba

9 wracks: liquifier, acothyst, raider with flickerfield
10 wracks: 2 x liquifiers, acothyst, raider with flickerfield
10 wracks: 2 x liquifiers, acothyst, raider with flickerfield
5 warriors: 1 blaster, venom with 2 splinter cannons
5 warriors: 1 blaster, venom with 2 splinter cannons

5 scourges: 2 haywire blasters
5 scourges: 2 haywire blasters

talos: heat lance, chain-flails
talos: heat lance, chain flails
ravager: flickerfield


this lands on 1750p exactly. You have two more scoring units and also get two venoms for some anti infantry fire. You are as killy as before, nothing really changed that. More optimised imho.

Let me know what you think.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 Coven list, A few questions.   1750 Coven list, A few questions. I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 05 2011, 05:33

Apophis wrote:
Haemonculus @ 75
Liquifier, Scissorhand

Attached to Grotesques.

Haemonculus @ 100
Liquifier, Venom Blade,
Webway Portal

Haemonculus @ 100
Liquifier, Venom Blade
Webway Portal
I like these okay. The Venom Blades are a bit of an 'eh' choice - as you'll really need to hook them back up with some unit rushing out of the portals to use it.

Quote :
8 Wracks @ 190
Liquifier 
Acothyst w Agoniser
Raider w Dark Lance, Flicker Field

8 Wracks @ 190
Liquifier
Acothyst w Agoniser
Raider w Dark Lance, Flicker Field

10 Wracks @ 220
2x Liquifier
Acothyst w Agoniser
Raider w Dark Lance, Flicker Field
Good with these, though I will agree with the above poster that you're pretty light on troop choices. I actually think he's totally out of his gourd trying to fix that by dropping you to a single WWP carrier though, which seems a recipe for disaster, but he's totally right in that you lack Troops.
Quote :

Elites

7 Grotesques @ 250
Liquifier 
Aberration w Flesh Gauntlet 
Whoah, seven Grots? Holy cats. Just for battlefield mobility I'd probably run a smaller unit - also, this is a lot of points to sink into something that isn't actually capable of being a full on Death Star type unit. I would probably shave off a couple of Grots to buy more Troop selections.

Quote :
Fast Attack

5 Scourges @ 130
2 x Haywire Blaster

5 Scourges @ 130
2 x Haywire Blaster
These are okay.
I'd actually drop them both for 5 Warriors w. Blaster in Venom/Raiders (I'd take Raiders) though, that would be another great way to get more Troops into the list. The Fast attack section is probably the weakest in our codex, and I really don't advocate taking from there unless it's a fluff or an insanity purpose Wink Now, since you want a Haemon theme, maybe leave 1 squad of Scourges in, and then take 1 squad of Warriors as a compromise?

Quote :
Heavy Support

Talos Pain Engine @ 120
Chainflails, Twin Linked Heat Lance

Talos Pain Engine @ 120
Chainflails, Twin Linked Heat Lance
Not shabby - I run mine very assault oriented, but the heat lance could help make them a slightly larger threat. I approve.

Quote :
Ravager @ 125
3 x Dark Lance or Disintegrator Cannon
Night Shield, Flicker Field
As regards your dilema, let's sort it out easy.

You have 3 squads of Wracks who are good at killing infantry.
2 Talos who kill infantry/mech
Squad of Grots to kill infantry.
3 Haemons that can kill infantry.
2 Scourge squads for anti-mech.
3 Raiders for anti mech.

So your army is fairly evenly split up, but a lot of your anti tank (Talos, and actually the Grots too) aren't showing up till turn 2 if they show up.
Your Wracks, which start on the board, can be assaulting Turn 2, guaranteed.
You want to make sure they can do those assaults.
I'd take the Ravager - you want to have transports already popped by the time the Talos, Grots, and Wracks are ready to assault stuff.

Regards,
Thor.
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xzandrate
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 Coven list, A few questions.   1750 Coven list, A few questions. I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 05 2011, 06:35

As always, Thor shows up first with much wisdom.

First, your total is off, I think it should be 6 grots to add up correctly.

Next, I'm going to add that you are playing a half and half game, not really a WWP list, not really a raider rush.

If you were going to go full WWP, I'd make the Grots the delivery unit, so drop them to 4, give them a Raider. You could probably put both WWP Haemies with them, unless you are looking to really split the portals. But in practice I've found one portal turn 1, then a second turn 2 or 3 in another spot is helpful.

So Grots to a 4 man, drop the liquifier, haemies will have 2 already, change the fleshgauntlet to scissorhands. Load them into Raider with flickerfield

Make all the wracks 10 man with two liquifiers, drop the raiders from 2 of them.

At this point you have the basic core, you can fit in one more troop unit, either a 10 man warrior squad with dark lance, or a 5 man with blaster in a venom.

You could change around gear a bit on the Haemies to be more effective. swap the scissorhand to a venomblade, bump the two WWP haemies up to power weapons. The Grots will be able to overwhelm with poison attacks, you'll need some power weapons to do the power killing. They will have FC, and be Str 4 on the charge.

I think that should leave you right on 1750, if you decide to go with the venom, you might consider dropping the ravagers NS for the extra cannon on the venom.

Beasts might be a good consideration instead of a scourge squad if you find you have enough anti armour. 3 beastmasters, 4 khymerae, 3 razorwing flocks 129 pts. Coming out of a WWP, they basically own the board.
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teknistmajjan
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 Coven list, A few questions.   1750 Coven list, A few questions. I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 05 2011, 15:01

Actually Thor i am not at all out of my mind Very Happy

There is really no reason what so ever to bring more then one portal when you are having that kind of a mix list. If you have only a few elements you want to come out of a portal then one is perfectly fine. If you want more then that then 2 are the way to go. One would need to play very large games before 3 is needed.

On top of that he delivers the wwp's from a raider (i don't since i play footdar) so he gets to put it where he really wants already in turn one.

Having two really only gives him a small edge, those points can be spent elsewhere for a more solid build.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 Coven list, A few questions.   1750 Coven list, A few questions. I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 05 2011, 19:09

teknistmajjan wrote:
Having two really only gives him a small edge, those points can be spent elsewhere for a more solid build.
I'll disagree with this.

He has 2 Talos and a Grot squad and Haemon coming out of the portal.
Now, you can look at that and say 'it's only part of the whole, yadda, yadda, yadda, but we should also look at another consideration;

It's a 1750 list.
Those units added together are, what, roughly 600 points, yeah (bad rounding math, but in the ballpark)
So really, we're talking about delivery of 1/3 of his entire army. You don't want to dork around with 1/3 of the army in my opinion.

1 Portal can be stopped by any army built half decently - because any half decent army should be able to destroy a Raider with one turn of shooting. If he does this he pretty much puts the Grots and Talos into a horrible realm known as "not a threat until Turn 3 at best, and that's presuming the portal carrier lives" You don't want to try fighting a 1750 army for 3 turns with a 1000 point army in my opinion.

2 Portals protects you from enemies who surround a portal and enemies who get first turn and manage to shoot down/kill a portal carrier and also gives you the potential to drop a portal on Turn 2 when you can functionally drop the portal anywhere on the board (like, y'know, next to a parking lot or his C&C objective or something). All at the relatively modest price of around 80 points. I think that's a very smart investment.

Can you play with one portal carrier?
Yes.
Can you win?
Certainly.
Do I believe a 2 Portal army is going to have a more consistent win record and also have added tactical options.
Not a question in my mind.

My thoughts,
Thor.
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teknistmajjan
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 Coven list, A few questions.   1750 Coven list, A few questions. I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 05 2011, 19:46

Thor665 wrote:
teknistmajjan wrote:
Having two really only gives him a small edge, those points can be spent elsewhere for a more solid build.
I'll disagree with this.

He has 2 Talos and a Grot squad and Haemon coming out of the portal.
Now, you can look at that and say 'it's only part of the whole, yadda, yadda, yadda, but we should also look at another consideration;

It's a 1750 list.
Those units added together are, what, roughly 600 points, yeah (bad rounding math, but in the ballpark)
So really, we're talking about delivery of 1/3 of his entire army. You don't want to dork around with 1/3 of the army in my opinion.

1 Portal can be stopped by any army built half decently - because any half decent army should be able to destroy a Raider with one turn of shooting. If he does this he pretty much puts the Grots and Talos into a horrible realm known as "not a threat until Turn 3 at best, and that's presuming the portal carrier lives" You don't want to try fighting a 1750 army for 3 turns with a 1000 point army in my opinion.

2 Portals protects you from enemies who surround a portal and enemies who get first turn and manage to shoot down/kill a portal carrier and also gives you the potential to drop a portal on Turn 2 when you can functionally drop the portal anywhere on the board (like, y'know, next to a parking lot or his C&C objective or something). All at the relatively modest price of around 80 points. I think that's a very smart investment.

Can you play with one portal carrier?
Yes.
Can you win?
Certainly.
Do I believe a 2 Portal army is going to have a more consistent win record and also have added tactical options.
Not a question in my mind.

My thoughts,
Thor.


Hey.

You are correct on a few points there. It is not a big investment, 85p is cheap for a portal guy that also brings a token, is it really needed?, no i do not believe so. At 2k i run 2 portals since my whole army exept the portal delivery units are coming out of it. Both in the footdar army and the harlequin version.

It is true that he has invested some points into those 3 units. Perhaps you missed what i typed in the firstpost i made into this thread. My suggestion included that he should get rid of some points from the grots and keep them cheaper.

But if thats not interresting he might want to run two i'm not sure. But my idea was to find some points for more troops, and really if grots becomes cheaper along with only two taloses one portal would probably be enough for this list.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 Coven list, A few questions.   1750 Coven list, A few questions. I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 05 2011, 20:39

I definitely agreed with your Grot shaving - I suggested much the same.

At 1850 - 1 Portal, 2 questions; what's your plan when you go second?
Have you ever had the initiative stolen from you, and how did that go?

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teknistmajjan
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 Coven list, A few questions.   1750 Coven list, A few questions. I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 05 2011, 22:21

Going second is of course harder with all footslogging DE. It still works and one needs to mix up the tactics some of course, and as always present threats so the units you want to be unharmed stays so,

Getting the initiativ stolen from you is probably the biggest pain here since one pretty often deploys without bothering about the seize.

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