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 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review

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Dethric
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 10:55

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Brom wrote:
All that said its the psych phase that needs discussed fellas. When even weirdboys are summoning greater daemons straight through 8 defense dice theres a problem.

I agree. The whole mechanic is broken as a psyker heavy army not only has sufficient power to brute force whatever spells they want to cast but can also completely shut down their opponents too. Oh, you wanted to cast a spell in your psychic phase? I'll just throw 20 dispel dice at it and see what happens.

Remember that the more dice, the higher the chance of perils, even with 3 dice the chance is higher than before, especially with Daemonology. And this scales fast, casting a spell with 7-8 dice will almost always peril, and perils should not be under estimated. Also, now each UNIT can only attempt a spell once, meaning that if you fail your fortune/prescience/whatever with your psykerblob, you cannot try to cast it again with that blob.
As i said, my main problems are Invis and Daemonology cast by Daemons.

As a buff (I think), you now place objectives before choosing deployment, which means less objectives far back and more in the middle, meaning we can probably grab all objectives turn 1 with ease.
Also shooting has changed, you now shoot one weapon at the time, which will require some getting used to.
Our skimmers has gotten better with less explosions and the ability to compensate for the jink nerf with flickerfields, not everyone can do that.
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MyNameDidntFit
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 11:00

@xzandrate wrote:
OK, by the time I got to them, eyes were getting sore, but where does it say you draw 3 each turn?

From what I understood, you draw what the mission states.  All but 2 missions said to draw 3 at the beginning of the first turn.  So 3 for the total game.  The other 2 were dependant on the turn number.  One wanted you to always have as many as the game turn, the other starting at 6 and reducing by one each turn number, drawing to that max, or discarding down to it.

All bar Mission 6 state that you draw more each turn under "Primary Objectives".
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 11:26

@Dethric wrote:
Remember that the more dice, the higher the chance of perils, even with 3 dice the chance is higher than before, especially with Daemonology. And this scales fast, casting a spell with 7-8 dice will almost always peril, and perils should not be under estimated.

The problem with that is that the two armies that I anticipate being the problem here, Eldar and Daemons, both have ways to mitigate the effects of Perils (Ghosthelms for Eldar, Brotherhood of Psykers for Daemons).

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Dethric
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 12:15

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Dethric wrote:
Remember that the more dice, the higher the chance of perils, even with 3 dice the chance is higher than before, especially with Daemonology. And this scales fast, casting a spell with 7-8 dice will almost always peril, and perils should not be under estimated.

The problem with that is that the two armies that I anticipate being the problem here, Eldar and Daemons, both have ways to mitigate the effects of Perils (Ghosthelms for Eldar, Brotherhood of Psykers for Daemons).
Ghoshelm will probably see a FAQ (i hope, along with CSMs spell familliar), and BoPs mitigates some of the shenanigans, but perils might still kill several models.
Don't forget GK, they can cast Sanctic powers with less chance for perils, and one of these powers are S:D.

Anyhow, the book says that the players should come up with restrictions if needed, and that you should be careful with having a fluffy reason to allow summoning Daemons. If you play with good people i do not think the Psychic phase is that bad :p
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 17:57

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Yes, one model with jink gives it to the entire unit. I did not catch that before... nice!
But you need to be careful, RAW states, and I quote: "Gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next movement phase, but they can only fire snap shots until the end of their next turn"

So does that mean no moving, charging, psychic, etc?

Raw = yes.


I don't think it means you can't do any voluntary action apart from snap shooting. You can still move, charge etc. but have to snap shoot if you choose to fire. As has been pointed out (I think by BarkingAgatha) in a separate thread, there's actually nothing to stop you jinking against overwatch shots too.

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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 18:22

I'm looking at the new allies rules. Am I correct in thinking that the way to take allies (in a battle-forged list) is just to bring them as another detachment? Ie. I need an HQ and 2 troops before I take anything else?

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Mngwa
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 18:30

@Plastikente wrote:
I'm looking at the new allies rules.  Am I correct in thinking that the way to take allies (in a battle-forged list) is just to bring them as another detachment?  Ie. I need an HQ and 2 troops before I take anything else?

As far as I have understood it is the same, so yes. But I think that now you can actually take two detachments and make them from two different codex's. Not sure though.
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Dragontree
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 18:43

@Plastikente wrote:
I'm looking at the new allies rules.  Am I correct in thinking that the way to take allies (in a battle-forged list) is just to bring them as another detachment?  Ie. I need an HQ and 2 troops before I take anything else?

I think it remains exactly the same as before i.e. take your primary and then take a HQ and Troops minimum for the allies.

On page 122 it states "the following detachments can be included in any battle-forged army"

And then it has the combined arms detachment and the allied detachment.

I don't see why you would need the 2 troops in an allied detachment?

Your combined arms is your primary and then your allied is exactly that using the allied detachment force org.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 19:04

@Mngwa wrote:
@Plastikente wrote:
I'm looking at the new allies rules.  Am I correct in thinking that the way to take allies (in a battle-forged list) is just to bring them as another detachment?  Ie. I need an HQ and 2 troops before I take anything else?

As far as I have understood it is the same, so yes. But I think that now you can actually take two detachments and make them from two different codex's. Not sure though.

Allied detachments are 1 HQ and 1 Troops, not two. Combined Arms detachments are 1 HQ and 2 Troops, and you can take as many as you like from different codices and still be Battleforged, but not in GW tournaments, and if you start mixing up Tyranids with Orks and Grey Knights you will be mocked by small children everywhere you go.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 19:07

@Barking Agatha wrote:
and if you start mixing up Tyranids with Orks and Grey Knights you will be mocked by small children everywhere you go.

This. In great big spades of this. Razz
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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 19:44

I already thinkin about Deathleaper and some genestealers as ally )))

I bet i saw them somewhere in cage below my biggest arena  bounce 

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 20:20

We have the new FAQs up! DE one seems updated too, will have to check that now

EDIT: Aand there is already a thread for it. I am slow.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 20:23

@Mngwa wrote:
EDIT: Aand there is already a thread for it. I am slow.

Don't say, you're slow. Say, you're a connoisseur.  Very Happy 

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 20:29

@Plastikente wrote:
I'm looking at the new allies rules.  Am I correct in thinking that the way to take allies (in a battle-forged list) is just to bring them as another detachment?  Ie. I need an HQ and 2 troops before I take anything else?

As cool as allies may be am in in the minority thinking that we are all here because we want or at least wanted at some point to play dark eldar? Have we all just come to terms with the fact that our army cannot be viable without Wave serpents and farseer jetbikes?

Why should we need allies from other codexes to be viable? If i'd wanted to buy, build, paint, and play our fairer cousins I would be on a craftworld themed forum. We are DARK Eldar! The worlds of man should fear us!

That said, Imotekh the storm Lord makes it night fighting on first turn automatically and can keep it in night fighting rules for nearly the entire game if the dice smile on you. He also drops S8 lightning bolts on 1/6th of your opponents units every shooting phase he maintains it. He seizes initiative just like vect than our and is 25 points cheaper. If you are on a budget a cryptek with harbinger of destruction brings a one time use solar pulse which changes day to night and night to day. Just wish night fighting didn't get so badly nerfed... with the buff to jink there would have been endless fun with this combo...
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 20:41

I'm more upset at the poison nerf than anything else not only have they given a blow to our units' survivability (due to how open-topped vehicles work in relation to area weapons) but they have also filed down what fangs we had.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 20:44

@ulijikaru wrote:
As cool as allies may be am in in the minority thinking that we are all here because we want or at least wanted at some point to play dark eldar? Have we all just come to terms with the fact that our army cannot be viable without Wave serpents and farseer jetbikes?

Why should we need allies from other codexes to be viable? If i'd wanted to buy, build, paint, and play our fairer cousins I would be on a craftworld themed forum. We are DARK Eldar! The worlds of man should fear us!

I'm the same. When I started Dark Eldar, it was so that I could play Dark Eldar (I know - what a concept!).

Allies should be entirely optional - not the only way to make your own codex viable.

@ulijikaru wrote:
That said, Imotekh the storm Lord makes it night fighting on first turn automatically and can keep it in night fighting rules for nearly the entire game if the dice smile on you. He also drops S8 lightning bolts on 1/6th of your opponents units every shooting phase he maintains it. He seizes initiative just like vect than our and is 25 points cheaper. If you are on a budget a cryptek with harbinger of destruction brings a one time use solar pulse which changes day to night and night to day. Just wish night fighting didn't get so badly nerfed... with the buff to jink there would have been endless fun with this combo...

Are we allowed to ally with Necrons now? I haven't looked at the new ally matrix.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 20:49

@ulijikaru wrote:
As cool as allies may be am in in the minority thinking that we are all here because we want or at least wanted at some point to play dark eldar? Have we all just come to terms with the fact that our army cannot be viable without Wave serpents and farseer jetbikes?

I'm in the minority with you then. I should be able to build a competitive army with Dark Eldar (or any other army) without feeling compelled to pull from other sources. Right now I'm the only person playing Dark Eldar and with the release of 7th edition and the hail of nerfs to our offensive and defensive capabilities I'm probably going to start painting that Nurgle themed daemon army I've been thinking about.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 20:55

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 21:45

@ulijikaru wrote:
As cool as allies may be am in in the minority thinking that we are all here because we want or at least wanted at some point to play dark eldar? Have we all just come to terms with the fact that our army cannot be viable without Wave serpents and farseer jetbikes?

Our army is viable without waving serpents and sightseer jetbikes, just not as good. I get your point, because allies should be a fun option, not something that you need to make up for our own deficiencies. There ought not to be any deficiencies! But things are what they are, and the other kids get all the cool toys. That doesn't mean that ours aren't viable, though.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 21:54

At this point I think I'm going to take a detachment of Slaanesh daemon allies. For no other purpose than to just give a middle finger to the fluff. I won't even do any conversions. I'll just have one custom objective showcasing a Kabalite Warrior giving a Daemonette a hug.

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ulijikaru
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeWed May 28 2014, 02:40

@The Shredder wrote:

Are we allowed to ally with Necrons now? I haven't looked at the new ally matrix.

We are still at come the apocalypse but it doesn't mean what it did in 6th edition. Now it means that you have to deploy even further than you would from desperate allies but you can still take a detachment and follow all the other rules of desperate allies.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeWed May 28 2014, 04:27

@ulijikaru wrote:
@clively wrote:
@ulijikaru wrote:
Has anyone noticed that the order of setting up battles has changed dramatically?

I think the new way is much more reasonable than the previous one.  The old one absolutely earned the double "o" in stoopid.

Would it not have been most reasonable to Pick a Deployment Table, Place Terrain, then fortifications and objectives?

I don't think so.  By having terrain placed before the deployment map is settled you have absolutely no idea where you are even potentially going to be coming from.  This means you have a certain creative freedom in how the board looks and it will certainly be far more interesting.  

With objectives being placed before sides are chosen in combination with the "tactical" objective cards, most armies will want them to be somewhere accessible...   Meanwhile, we now have scoring units that move between 30" and 48"..  So while my opponent will likely be putting them midfield, I'm going to place them in the corners. Smile Most armies will have a hard time controlling more than a couple, meanwhile I'll be able to get to any of them from T1 onward.

That said, claimed buildings can score...  so you really want those objectives placed before you drop fortifications.  I don't think a whole lot of people have noticed that little bit yet, however at some point it's going to lead to bastions actually showing up on the table. Personally, forts haven't been my thing because I just don't like the idea of a raiding party trying to establish a beachhead; however, I *might* be convinced to bring a cheap scoring building...


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DrakeHarkonnen
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeWed May 28 2014, 04:55

the problem with taking imotehk is his lightning can hit our stuff as well, look at the last bullet point of allies of convenience.

"Are affected by attacks, special rules or abilities used by allies of convenience that affect 'enemy' units with in a certain range or area of effect."

Come the apoc allies are desperate allies with more restrictions and desperate allies are in turn allies of convenience with restrictions.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeWed May 28 2014, 06:14

@clively wrote:

I don't think so.  By having terrain placed before the deployment map is settled you have absolutely no idea where you are even potentially going to be coming from.  This means you have a certain creative freedom in how the board looks and it will certainly be far more interesting.  

With objectives being placed before sides are chosen in combination with the "tactical" objective cards, most armies will want them to be somewhere accessible...   Meanwhile, we now have scoring units that move between 30" and 48"..  So while my opponent will likely be putting them midfield, I'm going to place them in the corners. Smile Most armies will have a hard time controlling more than a couple, meanwhile I'll be able to get to any of them from T1 onward.

That said, claimed buildings can score...  so you really want those objectives placed before you drop fortifications.  I don't think a whole lot of people have noticed that little bit yet, however at some point it's going to lead to bastions actually showing up on the table.  Personally, forts haven't been my thing because I just don't like the idea of a raiding party trying to establish a beachhead; however, I *might* be convinced to bring a cheap scoring building...

I get that it will allow for better perhaps more even scenery placement and will probably go a long way for making the games played look great and feel more authentic. That said our army isn't known for survivability/durability and my primary opponent is IG/AM. I just see this as being a major problem to finding enough cover/LoS blocking  to withstand the first round of fire, especially if he rolls first. The obvious answer is of course to saturate the board with layers of LoS blocking terrain but once again I find myself needing to invest in something other than dark eldar to make my dark eldar more of a viable army. Yay.    

@DrakeHarkonnen wrote:
the problem with taking imotehk is his lightning can hit our stuff as well, look at the last bullet point of allies of convenience.

"Are affected by attacks, special rules or abilities used by allies of convenience that affect 'enemy' units within a certain range or area of effect."

Come the apoc allies are desperate allies with more restrictions and desperate allies are in turn allies of convenience with restrictions.

What a shame. Looks like its just solar pulses then from the Crypteks...

Which brings me to another question, which will lead to a rant will probably will be inappropriately placed in this forum why would we EVER fight during the day time... We should never get ambushed ever, we are never in real space long enough. Are the webways only active in sunlight? Don't you think some archon somewhere along the line would have thought, "hey, ive got this crazy idea: lets only attack the side of planets where we have the greatest advantage?"

We are raider and pirates. Things like honor aren't in our vocabulary, so why in the 41st millennium are the most depraved group of homicidal maniacs only capable of planning a real space raids AT BEST just before the sun comes up?  Perhaps this another act of sweeping legislation by our fearless tyrant Vect:

"Now that i am now undisputed ruler of the most villainous, rebellious, morally bankrupt race that does whatever they want whenever they want I must now impose a few rules. I know how much rebels like you love rules!

1st there are to be no psykers amongst our ranks. Feel free to pursue power any other way but no psykers. absolutely none. Otherwise a boogie man name Salenesh will get you. Never mind that everyone in this city of ours IS a boogie man in their own right. No psykers. Psykers bad. Don't do it. This is me, an authority figure telling a race of rebels NOT to pursue your desires in this fashion. While your at it:
Don't Read this:
 

Secondly every realspace raid must take place at dawn despite our affinity for the night, ability to take advantage of the dark, and the fact that hardly any other army in the multiverse can ignore its negative effects like we can and the fear of our victims that we treat as an appetizer is heightened in the dark.

So in review: Pursue power, prestige, and everything that our people strive after any way you please but psychic powers, and purposely plan all of our raids so we don't put our enemies at a disadvantage with darkness. I don't want to see them not seeing us see them, I want to see them to seeing us see them."

Yes I am still sore about the no psyker thing, and no the FAQ addition of the shadowseer with one mastery level, no access to any psyker disciplines and one poor built in power doesn't count.
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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeWed May 28 2014, 07:49

@ulijikaru wrote:

As cool as allies may be am in in the minority thinking that we are all here because we want or at least wanted at some point to play dark eldar? Have we all just come to terms with the fact that our army cannot be viable without Wave serpents and farseer jetbikes?

Why should we need allies from other codexes to be viable? If i'd wanted to buy, build, paint, and play our fairer cousins I would be on a craftworld themed forum. We are DARK Eldar! The worlds of man should fear us!

I'm with you entirely - I started collecting DE because I want to play DE, however there are two reasons I am considering allies right now:

  1. One of my regular opponents has a passionate hatred of CWE, so I want to wind him up by taken a couple of token units in a campaign.
  2. I love the Dark Elf Black Dragon and Kharybdiss models, so I am trying to find a way to field them.  Fluff-wise, they are particularly large beasts from the Arena.  Rules-wise, I'm thinking a CSM Heldrake for the dragon, and maybe a Daemon Prince for the Kharybdiss.


@ulijikaru wrote:
Which brings me to another question, which will lead to a rant will probably will be inappropriately placed in this forum why would we EVER fight during the day time... We should never get ambushed ever, we are never in real space long enough. Are the webways only active in sunlight? Don't you think some archon somewhere along the line would have thought, "hey, ive got this crazy idea: lets only attack the side of planets where we have the greatest advantage?"

I can't believe I never thought of this before! You are so right!  Maybe something will come up in the new codex to let us do it the whole time...?  But more likely not  Sad

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