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The Shade of Despair
Slave
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PostSubject: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 01:49

Greetings Denizens of Commoragh, over the past few months which I have spent browsing this wonderful forum I have yet too see more then two lists using named characters other then the Duke, Vect and Baron. This goes for both competitive and semi - competitive lists. And yet when I look in different DE Tacticas I hear that we have two at least decent characters in Drazhar, Lelith and Malys.

So what gives, are they really so poor that no one even gives them a second thought and if that's the case then why highlight them as decent in the Tacticas. (Of course I haven't read all tacticas but rather many and they seemed well received enough.) Would you say that any of them are at least semi - competitive and if that's they case, which ones and how do you field them?

Thanks in forehand!
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 02:39

You forget about Urien Rakarth. Probably one of the top 'buff' characters in the game. Check out Skari's 'Path of the Carnevale' series of battle reports in the realspace raids section of this forum. That wonky-necked loony is a beast if you get it right.
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Thor665
Archon
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 02:46

Drazh suffers because he is perfectly decent...except for a 10 point upgrade you can get Vect, who is superior to Drazh in basically every way imaginable. (My tactica rated him as poor, fyi Wink )

Malys is...pretty decent. I called her semi-competitive. The catch with her i - she's basically 20-30 points more expensive than an Archon equipped with her gear, and at that point is her redeploy and psychic immunity worth 20-30 points? Most people have decided the answer is 'no' or, and more likely, by the time they buy that much, why not pay for a beefier Archon? She also suffered for the shift to 6th by losing out on AP value with her weapons.

Lelith...oh Lelith...she also suffered and became weaker in 6th, and she wasn't that well designed to begin with. She is basically good at killing hordes, and, frankly, DE are bad at assaulting hordes in 6th, and should probably just shoot them. So she basically competes with Splinter Cannons...and is very expensive. Not very impressive.

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The Shade of Despair
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 10:32

Hmmm okay, thanks for the replies. Seems like it comes down to them not necessarily being poor choices but rather that there are better to choose from. Thanks for clearing that up and I'll definitely check out those batreps you mentioned!
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 14:24

Really?

I find Drazhar REALLY useful!
If I want a good combat character, I'd take him over Vect anyday.

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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 14:48

Leilith is a Strength point away from being decent, or maybe re-rolling wounds. S3 severely limits her damage output. I just can't imagine using her except for fun.

Drazhar - I've heard some people speak glowingly of Darting Strike and his stats are pretty decent (save for the lack of an invulnerable) - if he could join units other than Incubi, I'd be interested.

Malys could be a decent choice if you're not sure what you want for your HQ, re-deploy d3 units is potentially very good and her native stat line and gear are ok - although I like Shadow Fields for keeping my HQs alive! Problem is, there's about her that suggests a build - and you can get cheaper HQs, and you can get killier ones.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 17:21

Quote :
Drazh suffers because he is perfectly decent...except for a 10 point upgrade you can get Vect, who is superior to Drazh in basically every way imaginable. (My tactica rated him as poor, fyi Wink )
Hmm - but Vect is only AP3...?

Draz chops Centurions better.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 18:43

@Azdrubael wrote:
Hmm - but Vect is only AP3...?

Draz chops Centurions better.

He lacks survivability, with just a 2+ armor roll.

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 18:45

Normal hb/sf Archon is best against centurions. There is no overwach even. You could sen it in alone almost.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 18:46

Quote :
He lacks survivability, with just a 2+ armor roll.

Oh boy, did i just hear "just 2+ armor roll" ? ))) Nice.

Quote :
Normal hb/sf Archon is best against centurions.

How is that? Isnt he wounding on 6+? That damn inevitable Tigurius will ruin his day with psychis support. And did i said i hate Hurricane Bolters? Well i do hate them.
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 18:53

Against tiggy draz or Vect is no better. Those hurricanes cant overwatch either.

Normally centurions respond to venoms quite good or dissies even better of you want to tailor

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 21:02

I would clarify tht I also gave Vect a poor rating, I don't think he's all that great either - but I think it's pretty crazy that they cost so similar when you can compare what they can actually do. Vect is pretty clearly the overall more useful and helpful IC and aids the army in a wide variety of ways.

Drazh is just...a semi-decent beatstick. He's not even all that great at what he's theoretically supposed to be great at, which is challenging and killing enemy ICs.

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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 28 2014, 16:33

Leilith is great. Run her in a raider with three grotesques and a Haemonculi and she is brutal. With three pain tokens this unit is a beast. Majority T5, with two Liquifyerguns, FNP, fearless, she hits at T4, and she alone puts out an average of about 12 attacks at no saves. I'd throw her at almost any unit in the game. She is worth every point. RB
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Bugs_N_Orks
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 28 2014, 16:36

Drazhar's problem is that without an invul. he'll get beat down by most decent CC characters, and can only join Incubi so his unit buffs (which aside from Fearless aren't all that great) can't be given to units that need them. For the same price Karandras, gives more and better attacks, infiltrate/outflank (for those tourney's/games that allow it), stealth, has grenades, monster hunter, and backstab, and he can hop from unit to unit depending on where you need the buffs.

Malys I used all the time in 5th (since she was our only way to get psychic defense). I think she definitely has her uses against certain armies (FMC Daemons, Seer-spam) but doesn't quite cut it for a TAC tourney choice. She's really only worth it if you put her in a big unit (like a beastpack), but then you lose the ability to buff them if you're taking an allied farseer/etc.

Leilith...eh...only ever seen her used once against me, it didn't end well for her. She's horribly over priced and just not that impressive in CC. If she had the ability to force a specific model to accept her challenges or something like that she might have a place, but her low S and T are big drawbacks. If she counted as having all 3 sets of wyche weapons (and being able to use them simultaneously) instead of her WS based attack bonus, she'd approach being useful, but as it is she both doesn't do enough damage nor can she take it.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 28 2014, 16:39

Even with the S4 from Furious Charge I always find Lelith rarely converts her huge number of attacks into decent casualties. 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds (allowing invulnerable saves) just doesn't get the job done in most cases - at least not for 175 points!

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 28 2014, 16:55

@Azdrubael wrote:
Oh boy, did i just hear "just 2+ armor roll" ? ))) Nice.

I see your point. The meaning changed a bit, when I translated it from german to english.

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joe twocrows
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 29 2014, 02:55

Great ones, allow this slave a point: if, as GW advocates, 40K is not meant as a tournament game, then all of the HQ's have their place. Because when your playing your mates, each knows what they are up against. Am I playing against blob guard, or termigants? Oh heavens please let me play Lillith, with many ablative wyches. Yes, I will no doubt have to endure Wyvern fire... for a turn.

Likewise, Drahzar. Two blaster-born in the van, and Drahzar + a few lesser incubi against a Deathwing in an LR? Oh happy days!!

It's the game you play. Obvious I know, but the idea is sometimes neglected.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 29 2014, 04:56

That sounds close enough to list tailoring that it's not something I'd do. A list I design is one I walk into the shop, and ask someone if they want a game, and I have my list ready to go and then ask them what they're playing, and I consider it a mark of my skills if my list can handle their army 'as is'. That's part of the fun for me, so someone like Lelith doesn't see a lot of play. Wink

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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 29 2014, 09:07

There's not enough ablative wyches in a Raider to make me consider charging a half-decent blob. Drazhar is overkill against most Termies.

I don't want to dismiss casual environments, or know your enemy's army - although I too prefer TAC lists as much as possible - but even in the best case scenario, you can still get more from less than with most of these characters. More power to the arm of any exceptions.
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 29 2014, 18:16

Thor, I think what two-crows was saying correlates with a post I made which I have been spamming FB with lately, here it is:
The game will never be balanced, because GW aren't interested in balance. The "tight-knit 'family' of playtesters" in Nottingham (direct quote from GW human resources woman) don't play it like we play it. They didn't see re-rollable 2++ saves coming because they play fun, fluffy and considerate lists against each other and forge diamond-hard narrative, with no aim other than to have fun and enjoy themselves. They wouldn't use re-rollable 2++ saves because they would see that as spoiling the fun. In effect they 'self comp' their games when they play; the 40k they design it to be is far cry from what we, the rest of the world, try to make of it. And there's the fundamental point: as far as GW is concerned, their rules aren't 'broken', we're all just playing it wrong by not tailoring our lists to ensure each player has a roughly equal chance of victory. This is the truth and ever shall it be so. If we want a tournament-worthy game we have to make our own set of comps and limitations, the product GW produce will never be fit for that purpose, as that is not what it's designed be.

What this basically means is, list-tailoring is part of the game as GW intend it to be played. Obviously I'm referring to mutual collaborative tailoring, designed to ensure both players have an equal chance of victory.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 29 2014, 18:44

I do not take that as what Twocrows was suggesting, and it also isn't against what I was saying in any case. If two players want to get together and custom build some armies for a narrative game - that is fine with me, I do that too.

It doesn't make Lelith a good choice.

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benmannen6
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeWed May 07 2014, 13:04

I agree. None of then are worth the points. Ive tried then and it fun to put them on the table but then I always wish I would have just gotten a Haemonculus instead.

There are only two useful characters in the codex:

The Baron and the Liq+venom blade haemonculus.

Anything else is just for fun... Undortunately.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeWed May 07 2014, 14:02

@benmannen6 wrote:
I agree. None of then are worth the points. Ive tried then and it fun to put them on the table but then I always wish I would have just gotten a Haemonculus instead.

There are only two useful characters in the codex:

The Baron and the Liq+venom blade haemonculus.

Anything else is just for fun... Undortunately.

I'm going to have to disagree with that. Vect certainly has his uses, as does Duke.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeWed May 07 2014, 15:02

I'd also say the Archon and the Succubus have their place in competitive builds and at various point levels (I'd say moreso than Vect, even). Baron is probably the best overall. I'd probably rate the HQs as such as far as competitive play goes;

Baron
Haem
Archon
Duke
Vect
Succubi

Malys probably has a place, I'd like to think so at least, but she is a bit of a meta counter, so it makes her hard to use in a true TAC build unless your meta has a lot of psychic shenanigans. Probably of the remainder I'd tend to go;

Malys
Urien
Lelith
Drazh
Decapitator

I'm not sure how I really feel about the Urien/Lelith/Drazh area, I feel like a lot of those could arguably bounce around amongst each other depending on local meta, but certainly none of them rank very high.

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Useless DE characters?   Useless DE characters? I_icon_minitimeWed May 07 2014, 21:20

Yeah, but look at Skari's record using Urien in his Path of the Carnivale series. He makes that bendy-necked freak do some serious work. It's all relative, is what I'm saying. Putting Sathonyx up so high on the list is dependent on having a beast-pack for him to join, for example. I know he has other uses, but his utility lessens considerably. It really depends on what list you're running.
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