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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 25 2014, 07:07

This thread was inspired by DEFan's post, which I'm going to repeat in full...

@DEfan wrote:
I have just been done over by IG the new Astra Militarum. With their already voluminous shooting, some bright sparks decided they also needed psykers with divination and ignores cover orders! What a pleasant game mechanic Evil or Very Mad ! It is a bad idea to even assault guardsmen because they re-roll to hits in combat as well, once prescienced. Pair that up with re-rolls on armour saves, too ("Foreboding/forewarning", I can't remember). They WASTED my wyches, gladiatorial champions my butt!
RRRAAAGGGGGEEEE !!
That I made it through a hail of fire and overwatch, setting my girls up beautifully with a multi-charge, was skilful play. Where is the style in plasma/melta toting ignores cover vets and guardsmen? There wasn't any relative safety for DE even in melee. Where is AM's inherent weakness now?
I have spent hours upon hours working to earn, build and paint my DE army, only to be crippled so consistently badly by T3 that playing on is pointless. Our ship is listing and I ride that all the way down, down, down.  
Am I nervous about a new book? I love this dex, but games with DE have been a real struggle. That post about the last year being a bad dream, that's me, too.  It is a 6th ruleset issue, though moreso than it is an age issue. The game is in a great place for some, pure DE are not part of that club.

Well we can't have this. Sure, they're the guys with the nice shiny new codex, and we're toting around some antique, but that's not the point - we're better than them, cos we're Dark Eldar, and we're better than everyone. So we need to beat them.

But how?

Let us study this upstart briefly. Some pertinent changes to note are

Their Psykers got cheaper and better
Their orders got better including things like Ignore Cover, Precision Shot and Tank/Monster Hunter
Their Priests got better and offer some fun close combat buffs plus Fearless
Their Leman Russes got cheaper - except for the ordnance versions - and can now occupy the HQ slot.
They got a nasty new 4 shot blast template Str4 re-rolls wounds ignores cover artillery tank
Vendettas are no longer quite as ubiquitous


There's some other things, quite a lot of other things, but I feel like these are the main points, which amount to...

IG can destroy infantry very easily. They have a lot of ignores cover.
IG blobs can now get very ridiculous through weight of buffs
IG are now being encouraged to take lots of tanks again

So what can we do about this?

The first and most important thing about being fighting Imperial Guard is being able to get rid of those buffs. A buffed blob of 40 Imperial Guard are truly terrifying. 40 Imperial Guard without all its buddies is just a big target begging to be kicked to the curb.

Some things we can do about this...

Crucible of Malediction - Primaris Psykers will probably go splat.
Hexrifles - You're praying for precision shots of course, but if you do get them, you've got a fair chance of making something important go splat. Heavy Weapons teams make good targets due to no look out sir. If you get lucky with the pinning test after killing the priest, so much the better
Mobility - If we're shooting from the front, then we'll have to chew through tank characters and thousands of guardsmen. If we start shooting them from the rear or flanks, we start getting to tasty things pretty quick. It may just be their special weapons, but they gotta die too.
Kill the Officers - Lieutenants and Colonels exist in tiny fragile 5 man squads. They are begging to be killed. Just asking for it. Oblige them.

Its not the easiest task - we're not as well set up for this as we should be - but we can go some distance towards denuding these blobs of their protectors. Doing so is half the battle - and so is killing the heavy and special weapons.

Tank hunting - I think we'll see Dark Lances get even more popular, but it shouldn't be for hunting Russes. Obviously they're ok, but all that side 10 armour? That's probably the first place to shoot the lances. Wyverns can't be allowed to live. Chimeras need breaking to get at the Vets and Command Squads before they can do much.

The Leman Russes are probably best dealt with using Haywire. If you can get that close to charge something with Wyches, remove the tanks.

Less Vendettas means less pressure on our fliers, which is our best source of large blasts for thinning out blobs in general. IG anti-air looks like being twin-linked blobs or tanks - which is ideal as they're not blasting you on the ground.

So... any other thoughts? I'm wondering if a Trueborn squad with Shredders in a Deep Striking Venom is worth considering. Dump it behind a blob and remove all the good bits.

I hearby declare Guard hunting season open.
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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 25 2014, 08:36

worthy topic.

wracks are serious anti infantry. they are my troopsof choice against IG. and every one.

disintegrator cannons are my choice for raider armament. ig make it look like a good choice. i like shock prows if they go Taurox/chimera heavy, w blaster born help for the big boyz.

webways are out of vogue. but they would allow units to get behind and at the commissars etc... in the bAck.

scoyrges can also get behind w haywire blasters and carbines.

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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 25 2014, 10:22

Thanks for the thoughtfulness in starting this topic. I will emphasise, I played against a good fella so I can't blame him for finding the awesome sauce and building such a good army out of it.

What worked well- First turn screwing up his interceptor gun platforms thanks to nightfight and nightshield toting venoms. I had 3 venoms, he had 3 platforms (Firestorm redoubt 2x Hvy 2 las cannons and a sabre platform). I knocked out 2. Therefore I would recommend 4 venoms in a list build.

Large blast weapons- all those fearless bodies clustered behind a conjoined aegis= no cover from monoscythe missiles. We need more large blast stuff but the options are limited in a pure DE list. A webway Chronos could be funny, but IG can order +1 modifier to reserves...grrr....

Aethersails- If you need to get out of line of sight, these were the bomb for me. You need to be REALLY out of line of sight, just to reiterate. Guard shooting is extensive and reprehensible.

What didn't work so well- beasts got ordnanced to bits. I ran in a large circle formation, perhaps a conga line is better, I dunno, the hellhound barbecued away happily at the dregs. Certainly a multi-level terrain piece in the middle of the board is necessary. There were no such terrain pieces left at the club and I had to make do with single level ruins or tall rocks.

Assault the platoon squad- I must have killed 3 guard sergeants trying to challenge out the priest/commander with my wyches and jetbikes. Daft mechanic, if issued a challenge it is obviously for the most buff characters to face-off. That complaint aside, I think it was battle hymn and definitely prescience, that in addition to fearless, make the guard way better than they should be in melee. Blast them or ignore and focus on something else like the BF Tanks. Hopefully you roll a mission other than Purge so they can be cajoled out of their defensive positions.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 25 2014, 15:20

I will admit, I'm not sure I get the furor. IG have, in my opinion, always and consistently been one of the toughest matchups for the DE since their last codex dropped, and this new one is hardly any worse. In some ways it is better because it maintains the weakening of the Hydra, and if you never dealt with the Hydra during its salad days - count yourself lucky.

So let's examine these points and I'll tell you my thoughts on them;

Their Psykers got cheaper and better

This is true and is, for my money, probably their best gain. No one will run the Sanctioned Psykers anymore (or whatever those chumps are called now) but the Primaris is looking pretty sweet.

Their orders got better including things like Ignore Cover, Precision Shot and Tank/Monster Hunter
Tank/Monster Hunter always existed. Precision Shot shouldn't matter too much to us, though I'll agree it could be pretty nasty to Beast Packs, but then ignores cover is probably better versus Packs, so it also probably depends on the officers available. I don't see the Ignore COver thing as all hat game breaking really - there's a reason I'm back to taking FFs on things in 6th when initially I didn't, and that's because lots of armies have Ignores Cover tools now, and it's not like that's an easy order for them to get because it requires a Senior Officer.

Their Priests got better and offer some fun close combat buffs plus Fearless

Priests lost giant chainsaws - your issues are invalid Wink

Priests are just the new Commissars, basically. The buffs are pretty good, but I submit that anything that could handle a blob before can handle a blob now. I am not surprised Wyches died versus a blob - I can't think of an edition since the blobs showed up where Wyches had any business trying to take out a blob.

Their Leman Russes got cheaper - except for the ordnance versions - and can now occupy the HQ slot.

I would be happy if my opponent was daft enough to take tank HQs and give up a slot - my army has lances, lances are good at killing Russes. I also have HWGs, I'm better at killing Russes than blobs.

They got a nasty new 4 shot blast template Str4 re-rolls wounds ignores cover artillery tank

That no one will likely bother playing since it's Str 4. Also, it ignores cover but is AP6. Literally the only thing in our army that is remotely intimidated by this should be Beast Packs. I can't think of a lot of things in other armies that will be scared of it. I am doubtful it is ever fielded in a competitive build.

Vendettas are no longer quite as ubiquitous

Huzzah!

IG can destroy infantry very easily. They have a lot of ignores cover.

I can think of a lot of armies that eat infantry, especiallt T3 5+ infantry. It's why I don't run much.

IG blobs can now get very ridiculous through weight of buffs

And still die in handfuls to splinter fire - which is what I'm doing to them. I'd also probably be happy to toss Packs in against them depending on their composition. I'm not sure why Blobs became particularly any tougher for us to deal with than they ever were though. What used to work still looks to work fine, and what they were good at killing they are still good at killing.

IG are now being encouraged to take lots of tanks again

They ever weren't? Wink
I've been saying since 6th dropped that I don't think it's a pro-infantry anti-mech edition like so many said. More and more armies are going mech again. Mech is good. Mech has a lot of power and not many drawbacks.

I will happily agree that a mech gunline IG build is a pain to deal with, but if you had an answer to it before you still do now. I'm just hoping people take more LRs and less Chimera now - or are dumb enough to take Tauroxes.

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 25 2014, 16:02

Hm, maybe now is the time to wipe off the dust from all the shredders...

@Thor665 wrote:
That no one will likely bother playing since it's Str 4. Also, it ignores cover but is AP6. Literally the only thing in our army that is remotely intimidated by this should be Beast Packs.

What about wyches? Onces they're off their ride, that thingie sounds pretty useful.

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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 25 2014, 16:28


Well the wyvern also has shred ... but that said I can agree with some points but not others. Blobs are better. A 50 man blob with 5 lascannons, priest, psyker and orders is firing and hitting with those las every turn. That is nasty. And Psykers are sick. Cheap spammed divination for foerewarning and prescience is just good. The orders are useful not game breaking But who is giving the orders counts. Yarrick is now a beast. I think we will see a lot of him for sure.

Cheaoper Russes will be bad for us too. You can take out Russes with lances but if you roll like I do with lances ... meh. The lascannons will take out my lances first.

To note ... Vas just beat a good blob list with his DelDar. So it can still be done. But they pose a threat for sure. A lot will depend on mission and terrain though.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 25 2014, 17:03

@Zenotaph wrote:
What about wyches? Onces they're off their ride, that thingie sounds pretty useful.
Once Wyches are out of their rides a squad of 10 Guardsmen rapid firing lasrifles will also punch a huge hole in them. I see no reason to fear a vehicle simply because it can wipe out a squad of Wyches on foot. Lots of things can do that.

@egorey wrote:
A 50 man blob with 5 lascannons, priest, psyker and orders is firing and hitting with those las every turn. That is nasty.
I agree - but IG could already do this sort of thing last codex. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Guard are weak - all I'm saying is that I don't think they're any stronger than their already strong codex that was replaced.

@egorey wrote:
And Psykers are sick. Cheap spammed divination for foerewarning and prescience is just good.
Agreed, as I said I think this is the most potent thing they gained.

@egorey wrote:
Yarrick is now a beast. I think we will see a lot of him for sure.
Yarrick is inferior to what he was in my opinion.

@egorey wrote:
Cheaoper Russes will be bad for us too. You can take out Russes with lances but if you roll like I do with lances ... meh. The lascannons will take out my lances first.
I always just roll really well, it's an excellent strategy.
But this is no different than what IG could do before - massed infantry lascannons and a wall of armor? That's what they used to field that was horrid for us to fight, and now they can...still do it.

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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 25 2014, 18:56

My list was ahead of its time. i love it when my so called "suboptimal" list becomes the flavor of the month. Lol. Astra Militarum forces rumbling to a theatre near you.

I'm not going to panic too much here. I think Hexrifles and anything that allows us access to their backfield are going to be really good.

Heck Raiders filled with Kabalite Warriors sounds like a great way to assassinate some characters hiding in the back.

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ulijikaru
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 25 2014, 19:23

Everything that has been mentioned so far has posses a significant challenge to proving our supremacy over this army, however a few things have been missed. The first is the addition of fire barrels. For the low low price of 10 points (made all the easier by the 20-40 point price drop on most of the Leman Russes) their tanks now have d6 autohits vs. the charge at Strength 4 AP5. On average that means roughly 2.3 dead wyches a charge.

A 5 man wych squad with haywires taking those kind of losses on the charge can only provide an average of 1.5-2.2 glaces where once they were able to land 2.8-4.1 (depending on whether the vehicle has moved in the previous turn). This is obviously not enough to reliably take out a tank.

Now assume a 10 man wych squad charges a squadron of non-transport tanks. On average that means about 7 wyches are dead on the charge with the remainder landing only 1.7-2.5 glancing hits on a charge that once would have yielded 5.6-8.3 glances depending on whether or not the tanks had moved.

The second thing is they gave ratlings a shoot then run mechanic. While this is far less serious than neutering the most reliable means we have of dealing with tanks--our whole army should have this rule and doesn't. It's a slap in the face.
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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 25 2014, 23:26

I wonder then because the wyches are in close combat with a tank, that they can therefore take their dodge save? Sorry, was that factored in with the mathhammer above?

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ulijikaru
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 25 2014, 23:33

Fire barrels get their d6 hits during overwatch. Hence the wyches are not in close combat and do not get their dodge.
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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 25 2014, 23:35

Really!?! RRRRAAAGGGGEEE!

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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 26 2014, 00:41

hmm. solution is more Wych's

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ulijikaru
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 26 2014, 04:15

The rules appear to read like fire barrels happens in the charge but doesn't seem to indicate that it is subject to overwatch limitations (cant overwatch when locked in combat, can only overwatch once a turn). Rather it says that "The first time an enemy unit attempts to charge a vehicle with fire barrels" it will take the hits. Unless i am reading this wrong fire barrels are a "better than overwatch" overwatch weapon.

Granted no unit can suffer the barrel more than once ever but if I am correct--and i hope that I am wrong--then even if the first unit to charge manages to survive the fire barrel, and become as locked in combat as an infantry unit can be with a vehicle there is nothing preventing the now necessary second unit of "more Wyches" from suffering the effect of their very own fire barrel.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 26 2014, 05:01

Without having seen the whole rule, that excerpt reads like it's a one-time only thing. So the first unit to charge gets ghosted, but any subsequent unit is free to skip in whistling a merry tune.

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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 26 2014, 05:21

If they are overwatch, their effects can be neutered by charging out of cover using a PGL; if combat the dodge save applies; the idea of neither is contentious and I would argue strongly with such a reading.

That said, I don't expect it to come up much, as points are always tight and most IG players will be expecting their tanks to be charged by things like Wraithknights, FMCs, Knights, SM Assault Squads and so on that aren't scared by them. Or Ork boyz intending to glance them to death on Furious Charge. There aren't too many times tanks get charged by fragile troops in small numbers - unless they're tailoring, I wouldn't expect to see these too often.

I would also argue the intepretation that says they're a one use item only, but I can see how it can be read otherwise.

---

I expect Wyverns to be popular. They can hunt down hiding units (such as Eldar jetbike squads), snipe out specific models through barrage and inflict damage even on well armoured units through sheer weight of fire. Whether that makes them good against us remains to be seen, but I'd expect to face them. I don't think Thor is wrong when he says they'll only fulfil a function that Guard could already do against us - absolutely kill any dismounted infantry - but it will do it while allowing the blob to focus on knocking out vehicles and so on.

Mechanised armies - well, I get the feeling that for most people they were out of fashion. Now cheaper non-ordnance Russes put them back in. Guard players want to use them again - but for how long I don't know. It's not difficult to plot an utterly horrible end for heavy tank armies, neither for us or for others. But I feel we should expect more of them for the time being and plan accordingly.

I think it's all going to come down to the blobs and their support. The reason Yarrick is great is that he is the most resilient source of orders they have. Every other source can be hunted down ruthlessly. Me, I think if I was tailoring for IG, I'd have two Razorwings...
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 26 2014, 05:29

@wanderingblade wrote:

I would also argue the intepretation that says they're a one use item only, but I can see how it can be read otherwise.
[s]Having reread it, I'd say the wording is far too ambiguous to state either way and needs FAQing. But as I say, I've not seen the full rule.[/s] I stand by my interpretation: the alternative requires that a unit charges the same thing more than once, and what are the chances of that?

And having reread your comment, I realise you may actually be arguing *for* my interpretation, not against it. This needs FAQing.

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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 26 2014, 09:08

Hah! I mean that I believe the thing works once and once only, and that is the first time. If a second and different enemy unit charges, then its the second time an enemy unit has charged it, and it doesn't apply - the first time applies to the vehicle, not the enemy unit.

Agreed it needs FAQ'ing though due to woeful ambiguity. Dear me.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 26 2014, 17:22

I hope you are correct and that it gets FAQ'd as one shot only. Either way it makes for even sharper scissors to our paper.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 26 2014, 18:06

its not overwatch. It just is. Its pretty good. But only against non MEQ's. IN other words, Xenos

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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 06:19

If IG players end up taking them - and I do reckon they'll only really turn up in either tailored armies, or really tank heavy armies - then its possibly worth keeping the Wyches alive to take objectives instead of charging them in. Alternately, send them after platoon command squads and the like... but really, blob guard will have common deathstar weaknesses; it can only kill so many different things at once and it can only be in so many places at once. Just keeping the Wych unit alive to take an IG home objective off of the previous occupants (who you've probably shot to death) forces the Guard player to start making hard choices about where the blob's going and what it's engaging.

If we can give them some hard, relatively cheap targets to worry about so they leave our Raiders alone and if we can take down their support pieces quickly, things will be a lot easier.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 17:30

Thor-Yarrick is in no way inferior to the previous edition of him. He is cheaper and he gained the ability to give orders as a senior officier none the less. You will find him in almost every competitive build that uses a blob. He's just too good not to take and stick in a blob.

Wyverns are nasty. First of all the shooting may not look great at first but remember this thing is SUPER CHEAP at 65 points a piece. I could field 3 without loosing many points...its better than a thunderfire cannon in many ways.

As for sniping characters, if your opponent leaves them in the back of the blob...then its time to use reavers again since their bladevane is done from the where they land. Expensive unit that will die pretty quickly to IG, but it has potential perhaps.

Razorwings fitted out for AI are also useful for blob removal...its quick a bit of large blasts to throw around...this may only get more useful depending on how the Ork codex works out.


I think the key character to kill in a blob are any priests. They give fearless and probably will generally be taken with no commissars. Kill them then you have a chance to beat them down in close combat and force them to run away hopefully and slay the whole blob. Grots and archon have done this for me many a time in the past.

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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 19:10

@ligolski wrote:
Thor-Yarrick is in no way inferior to the previous edition of him. He is cheaper and he gained the ability to give orders as a senior officier none the less. You will find him in almost every competitive build that uses a blob. He's just too good not to take and stick in a blob.
I disagree.

What is Yarrick specifically bringing to the party now?
He's not a source of Fearless - that's the Priests.
He has orders, but I could get that in other ways with more guns via the CCS or something.
The only thing he brings to the party is being durable.

He used to bring Fearless, and a Stubborn bubble, and an extra Chimera if you needed it and wouldn't much about with much shooting people because people were too scared to even run around him, now you could theoretically make Yarrick run away and sweep him.

I guess it's nice he's cheaper, and it's not like him being able to give orders is bad - but I don't think he's what he was.

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ulijikaru
Hellion
ulijikaru

Posts : 49
Join date : 2013-11-19

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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 27 2014, 21:02

@wanderingblade One of the new Orders they picked up gives the unit receiving it the split-fire special rule. They are far more versatile than before.
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ligolski
Wych
ligolski

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Join date : 2012-12-02

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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 28 2014, 14:11

@Thor665 wrote:
@ligolski wrote:
Thor-Yarrick is in no way inferior to the previous edition of him. He is cheaper and he gained the ability to give orders as a senior officier none the less. You will find him in almost every competitive build that uses a blob. He's just too good not to take and stick in a blob.
I disagree.

What is Yarrick specifically bringing to the party now?
He's not a source of Fearless - that's the Priests.
He has orders, but I could get that in other ways with more guns via the CCS or something.
The only thing he brings to the party is being durable.

He used to bring Fearless, and a Stubborn bubble, and an extra Chimera if you needed it and wouldn't much about with much shooting people because people were too scared to even run around him, now you could theoretically make Yarrick run away and sweep him.

I guess it's nice he's cheaper, and it's not like him being able to give orders is bad - but I don't think he's what he was.

True I did forget about the stubborn bubble and fearless, but I dont think that is a big loss considering he had a considerable points drop. Him being able to do orders is big though because CCS are super fragile. Now you can just hide him in a blob and he can order away. Stubborn isnt a huge deal as commissars are easy to get all over the place. Loss of fearless hurts, but a 25pt priest fixes that pretty easily. It may be advantagous to have USRs spread across several characters rather than putting your eggs in 1 basket. Just my thoughts, but I see where you are coming from. Smile

*The one really bad thing he lost was the auto rerolls to hit on the charge...but with a 40 pt decrease I guess stuff had to give. I really think he shines though due to being a senior officer.

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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Guard means for us   What the Imperial Guard means for us I_icon_minitime

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