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 750 points list with scourges

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Jatosemja
Slave
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Join date : 2014-04-07

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PostSubject: 750 points list with scourges   750 points list with scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 21 2014, 21:42

Hello,
I am starting with the DE and currently I am trying to get 750 pt army. The Baron Sathonyx and Scourges is taken from this army list. My main question is, whether Scourges can be competitive or if they should be used in fun games only.

HQ : Baron Sathonyx

Troops : 2x 10 Warriors w/ SC in Raider

Fast Attack : 1x 8 Scourges + 2x Blasters

Heavy Support : 1x Ravager + NS

This gets me to 746 pt. Anyway I would greatly appreciate any ideas how to improve this list.

EDIT: Thanks everyone for their ideas. basically the main problem is, that Scourges are the only targetable units and will therefore die quickly. How about switching 2 Raiders for a squad of Hellions? Something like this:

HQ : Baron
Troops : 2x 10 Warriors + SC
            1x 8 Hellions + Helliarch w/ PGL
Fast At. : 1x 7 Scourges + 2x SC
Heavy Sup. : 1x Ravager + GT

This gets me to 747 points. Maybe I should cut some warriors and get NS on Ravager and maybe more Hellions?


Last edited by Jatosemja on Thu Apr 24 2014, 14:00; edited 2 times in total
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Lahcimus
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points list with scourges   750 points list with scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 21 2014, 22:22

Soo, Scourges are mostly used in squads of 5 or 10 to maximize the special weapons they can bring to the game. I prefer to use 5 with 2 heat lances for 130 pts so they can easly open almost every vehicle
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Athalkar
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points list with scourges   750 points list with scourges I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 22 2014, 01:35

Caveat: If you don't like a suggestion, ignore it.  

As for your list.  

The Barron and Scourge are not bad... But by putting your HQ with them, they really want that pain token because they are going to be a high priority target being worth three VPs (HQ, FA and Slay WL) the pain token is not something they can get with the blasters or giving them a tank shooting priority.  

I'd consider dropping the blasters and a body from the scourge giving blasters to the Warriors and putting in some splinter cannons in the scourge and then putting a Grisly Trophy on the ravager.

It slightly worsens the anti vehicle shooting by reducing the threat range (warriors in raider only "24 whereas scourge are "30) but mitigates that by letting them shoot at different targets and effectively doubling your long range your anti-infantry/monsterous creature fire power.  (i.e., 36"+ splinter cannon shots... from 8 to 16.)  Notably, with the two raiders and there Dark Lances and the Ravager's You've got 5 dark lances and at 750 points that's fine.  (I've seen 1500 lists with only 5 vehicle mounted lances...)- i.e., your not hurting on anti-tank.  

Generally On your question for "competitive"

This part is just generally speaking.... not necessarily applicable to your list.  

Scourges in and of themselves are not that "competitive"-- Ravager has longer ranger more shots and is cheaper. Trueborn are a bit more expensive but are generally more price efficient (i.e., blaster shots can shoot one target and venom splinter canon shots can shoot a different target).  

Albeit they can be a competitive choice when fielded in manner with like kind saturation.  Of course, the key to their effectiveness is redundancy.

To explain the above to principals consider the following two scenarios

(1) MSU with a bunch of venoms/raider and scourge squad... Scourge will perform very poorly and will die often because the they only thing anti-infantry can shoot (effectively) is the scourge.  Heavy Bolters are far more effective at killing/breaking scourge than venoms.

(2) Beast, hellions, bikes,  wyches in venoms with Hawywire grenades and blaster born .... Scourge will perform better because anti-infantry fire would have to be shared among all the different targets.    Additionally, the redundant role with other anti vehicle (when scourge are anti-tank) will protect Scourge and allow the Scourge to do what you intend them to do.

On point basis they are neither too expensive nor are they a bargain.  As an advantage/pro, even when kitted out with anti-tank weapons, they have a enough splinter shots to lend some auxiliary fire power against infantry when needed.  In this sense they are quite versatile.

I agree with Lahcimus on unit size.... when fielding an ordinary unit.  With a more anti-infantry and as a Baron escort the additional bodies are not a bad choice.  

Weapon selection depends on (1) deployment/delivery and (2) your need.  

Heat lances are fun and cheaper; however, if you delivery is deep striking blasters, while more expensive and less effective, are the safer bet because of the greater effective range (heat lances as against vehicle targets have a 9" range for the melta; if your targeting heavey infantry then it does not matter as much).  

If from a WWP... heat lance FTW.  21" anti vehicle threat bubble from the portal.  Further on the safe side you can keep them in reserves declaring a deep strike.  If within portal range then  they fly from the portal if not then they can still deep strike.  

Haywire blasters.... can't say.  they can bring the hurt but cannot destroy really.  I primarily fielded them in 5th because they could stun/lock vehicles now I just have experimented with them enough to judge.  On paper, they don't appear to do what is needed, i.e., destroy and/or stop a vehicle that I don't want shooting.  

Need.... this one is kinda self explanatory.
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Jatosemja
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points list with scourges   750 points list with scourges I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 22 2014, 19:03

Thanks for the tip. I guess with this kind of army I want to offer more targets for the enemy than just scourges. What about using Wyches instead of Warriors then? That would give the opponent more stuff to shoot at and they would allow the Scourges to go AI with the SC. So for example:

Baron Sathonyx
2x 5 Wyches w/ Haywires and Hekatrix + PGL and Agoniser in Venoms w/ SC and NS
1x 7 Scourges w/ 2x SC
1x Ravager w/ NS

Upgrading the Wyches might make them seem more dangerous and draw some fire from the opponent. Alternatively I could take something like 7-8 Wyches with Haywires in Raiders. And then probably switch the Ravager with Talos?
I have not yet bought the models so they can easily be changed. The only "unchangeable" part are the Scourges. They just look too good.
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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points list with scourges   750 points list with scourges I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 22 2014, 22:06

@Jatosemja wrote:

Baron Sathonyx
2x 5 Wyches w/ Haywires and Hekatrix + PGL and Agoniser in Venoms w/ SC and NS
1x 7 Scourges w/ 2x SC
1x Ravager w/ NS
OK, I'm still new here, but is 2x5 Wyches all? Well, all Troops, I mean.
What piece of your army is, ah, holding the line? Meaning objektives.

Back to topic: The Baron with scourges could be potent. I'm wielding some Ideas right now, thanks...
Nah, it must be AI, 5 men, 2 splintercannons.

And it feels wasted, somehow. Sorry, just a feeling, but scourges are best at midrange.
The baron is, well, I don't really know, what he is, but he seems to prefer close combat.

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Expletive Deleted
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points list with scourges   750 points list with scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 23 2014, 02:08

@Jatosemja wrote:
Thanks for the tip. I guess with this kind of army I want to offer more targets for the enemy than just scourges. What about using Wyches instead of Warriors then? That would give the opponent more stuff to shoot at and they would allow the Scourges to go AI with the SC. So for example:

Baron Sathonyx
2x 5 Wyches w/ Haywires and Hekatrix + PGL and Agoniser in Venoms w/ SC and NS
1x 7 Scourges w/ 2x SC
1x Ravager w/ NS

Upgrading the Wyches might make them seem more dangerous and draw some fire from the opponent. Alternatively I could take something like 7-8 Wyches with Haywires in Raiders. And then probably switch the Ravager with Talos?
I have not yet bought the models so they can easily be changed. The only "unchangeable" part are the Scourges. They just look too good.

The thing is your opponent still only has one infantry unit to shoot at first turn whether it's wyches or kabalite warriors, they're still in a transport. I would say scourges can be competitive even if they're not the most competitive choice, but in a heavy mechanized list, they're kind of limited to deepstriking.

If you are really committed to scourges you need to ask yourself what you want to do with them, and then build the army around that. I think the best thing about scourges is their arsenal. They have access to weapons even trueborn don't, namely haywire blaster. Which is actually pretty decent. Also as I've stated in other threads about scourges, they're more durable than they look. Especially with a pain token. 4+ 6++ with a 5+ FNP.

I agree with you though bud, when I first started, the first box I bought after the Dark Eldar Battleforce, was scourges, because they looked AMAZING.

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Athalkar
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points list with scourges   750 points list with scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 23 2014, 06:08

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
I agree with you though bud, when I first started, the first box I bought after the Dark Eldar Battleforce, was scourges, because they looked AMAZING.

I have a full squad of mandrakes for that reason.

As a clarification to my previous post... I have not experimented with the haywire blaster. So on its use look to Expletive Deleted's comment.

Having Switching to venoms and wyches; you don't really have the option to switch the ravager to the talos because that would leave you with no long range anti-tank and that is generally bad at any point level.

Venoms are threatening enough they will draw fire without the Hekatrix and its upgrades; however,
Expletive Deleted is right, the only troops available to shoot at are still the scourges (and vehicle explosion generally solve people problems with threatening look wych squads) so the Scourge are still exposed.

As is (scourge with focus of anti-infantry for easy(-ier) feel no pain), it might not be that big of a deal at 750 points....

A crazy idea.... if you ditch the Hekatrix and those character upgrades... plus ditch the nightshields (see kinda crazy) that would give you enough points to max the Scourge squad at 10 models and give them two additional splinter cannons. (Assuming I've done my math correctly).

As said by Expletive Deleted, long run for expansion is going to require you to build the army around the scourge if you dead set on keeping them.

play test and good luck and kick some [expletive deleted] butt.

PS I apologize for the pun--


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PostSubject: Re: 750 points list with scourges   750 points list with scourges I_icon_minitime

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