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 Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 14 2014, 06:47

Evenin' folks!
My friend and I are playing in a doubles tourney soon, and trying to determine our lists. Each of us gets 1000pts, no allies or FW, allies matrix ignored and we're all treated as allies of convenience.
I myself am playing DE, of course, and my pal is using Space Marines: Imperial Fists with the supplement.

So far my list is as follows;

Haemonculus
3x 5 Kabalites, Venom w/SCannon, NS
5 Wyches, HWG, Venom w/SCannon, NS
9 Kabalites, Raider, FF, NS
Ravager, FF, NS
Razorwing, FF (Should I use Dark Lances or Dissies? I'm leaning towards Dissies)
Total 986/1000

14pts to play with. 2x Necrotoxin missile for pinning? LG on my Haemy?
Or ~100pts to play with if I drop NS, FF on the Raider/Ravager, and 4 of the 9 kabbies.
What to do???
Basically I'm asking you what YOU would bring with 1000pts if you were supporting the following list:

M friend is looking at
Librarian, Auspex
2x 5 scouts, camp cloaks, sniper rifles
3 Centurions, hurricane bolters, grav cannons (tankhunter)
Stormtalon, Skyhammer missiles
Thunderfire Cannon
5 Devastators, 2 Lascannon
Stormraven, Multi-Melta, Extra Armour
I believe that's 1000/1000

What do you think? I'm getting the feeling I want less upgrades and more boots on the ground.
But I don't know where to take this or how. We figured more troops on my end, since they're cheaper and generally more full of win than Space Marine troops, and me slightly more focusing on anti-infantry than him.
Please give opinions & thoughts regarding either army, but specifically the DE that you folks know so much about!
Thanks for your time, and have a good one.

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Fleet Shadowmaker - Kabal of the Dying Sun; Cult of Marrow Excised; Coven of Lambent Hunger
Sons of the Last Breath - Chaos Space Marines
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 16 2014, 14:39

I would drop the razorwing in exchange for some more raider gunboats. Your ally seems to have anti tank and anti air covered, (myself being an avid salamander player) I would personally swap out the centurions and a scout squad to get some more marines on the ground to hold objectives! A couple of centurians will go down a lot quicker than some combat squaded marines with lascannons/ multi meltas!

If I was supporting that list, I would feel very much at ease with anti tank.
I would go for a full shoot list, As many Raiders with 10 warriors, splinter racks either NS or FF and dissies depending on points available. Perhaps some trueborn with cannons in Venoms for ultimate "hosing potential", no wyches, just kabalites, drop the razorwing and use the points to get more troops and get a ravager out with either 3 dark lances or 3 dissies, depending on how effective you think his list is going to be against high armour.

A full shooty kabalite list can be deadly in small point games and I think its the most effective type of list to use with marines.
I might be completely wrong though, it depends on your playstyle a lot, hope it gives you some things for consideration though!

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 17 2014, 06:04

Honestly I've been thinking about something along those lines recently as well, when it comes to larger units of troops on my part. And my first serious match as DE used kabbie boats to secure a victory; thanks for reminding me.
But I disagree on using dissies; I'm worried enough about facing Wave Serpents and IG Parking Lots, not to mention the joy of IDing MEQ and zoans, to want to pack more Dark Lances than not.

Thoughts on this;
Haemy
Trueborn, 2 SCannons, Venom w/Extra SCannon
9 Kabalite Warriors, Raider w/Dissie, NS, Racks
10 Kabalite Warriors, SCannon, Raider w/DLance, NS, Racks
10 Kabalite Warriors, SCannon, Raider w/DLance, NS, Racks
10 Kabalite Warriors, SCannon, Raider w/DLance, NS, Racks
Ravager w/trip-DLance, NS, FF
997/1000

4 scoring units w/39 bodies, 7 Splinter Cannons, 36 twin-linked Splinter Rifles, 1 Disintegrator Cannon, 6 Dark Lances, and my swingin' cod.
VS previously 5 scoring units w/29 bodies, 8 Splinter Cannons, 24 Splinter Rifles, 4 Dark Lances, 5 Haywire Grenades, and a couple missiles and 2 Disintegrator Cannons in Reserve.


Regarding his list I agree more scoring boots would be a good thing, I just didn't know what he should think about swapping out. You say Centurions + 1x scouts, hey? That loses him a lot of serious Dakka, but gains 330 pts to mess with.
10 TAC marines, Heavy Bolter, Flamer
10 TAC marines, Heavy Bolter
+1 psyker level on the libby?

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Fleet Shadowmaker - Kabal of the Dying Sun; Cult of Marrow Excised; Coven of Lambent Hunger
Sons of the Last Breath - Chaos Space Marines
Host of Shattered Purity - Chaos Daemons
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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 17 2014, 08:58

I see exactly what you mean on all accounts!
I only think dissies because they troll MEQs and Termies, which in small games can be devastating for an opponent. I know I once gambled on taking dissies to a 1000 point game (the list was actually very similar but I had 3 raiders and two venoms) and it really helped, however it was against ravenwing and anything else it might have struggled against. I just like each unit to have a specific role, in my personal experience if I try and multi task with a unit they are not as effective, for example gunboat kabalites can't hurt vehicles, so I give the raider a dis to help take down high armour units I might come across and rely on ravagers or blaster born to take out the vehicles, but I know exactly what you mean!

Your list however, looks very good, I might swap out the dissie raider and the 9 warriors for a venom with either true born or 5 kabalites just. For that extra ranged fire support. Either way though the list looks competitive!

With your ally, I would still stand that having some tactical marines with multi melts would be a good thing. It would also make use of the imperial fists bolter drill rule! I would personally be more comfortable with more boots on the ground but I'm sure your ally knows what he is doing!

It's a tough one, both lists have their strengths, more targets can be useful and haywire wyches can be potent. Perhaps the second list with an extra venom with trueborn or warriors might be the crossover that is needed?

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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 17 2014, 13:39

Im actually scheduled to play a fun doubles game on Monday. 1000 points each plus a randomly chosen 500 point supplement list of another army (Its either going to be tyrannids, necrons, Ravenwing, Blood angels, space marines, Imperial Guard, Chaos space marines, tau, grey knights, deathwing or daemons! There are a lot to choose from!). With an ally who is likely to bring space wolves. If its not to late I could give that list a go and say where it excelled or suffered? Perhaps the game type is a tad different but it might help?

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 17 2014, 16:12

I'll fiddle and see what I can do about getting another Venom in there. I just need somewhere to hide my Haemy, and it feels like a waste putting him with Trueborn.
MSU felt good until I realized at this points level it isn't enough of a difference in scoring units to warrant the weakness in low body count.
And please feel free to give it a go, let me know how it went!!! My tourney isn't for a couple weeks.

My buddy stands by his scouts, saying they're more survivable than TAC marines, and that his centurions are needed for AP2 and anti-vehicular.

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nwabudikemorgan
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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 18 2014, 00:11

Hey, thought I'd chime in, (I'm the SM Player here), The scouts are packing a 3+ cover in ruins, 2+ in the ruins bolstered by the TFC's Techmarine, and give a 36" threat range for 5 bodies at 70 points, same cost as 5 tac marines but more range and better save. Even outside ruins they have 4+ saves, and can go to ground in area terrain for a 2+.

Regarding the Centurions, I honestly am having trouble finding something worth 250 points that puts out the same dakka, vs MEQ and TEQ, the grav cannons are doom, and the hurricane bolters are putting out 9-18 twin-linked shots to force saves. Against vehicles, 15 grav cannon shots is 10 hits and with grav-amp, 3 hits on vehicles for 5 hull points, which will end anything they look at.

I really think Laughingcarp's DE scoring units are much better than tac marines, and I'd love to take more scouts but I only own enough for two squads. SO those points would have to go into replacing the anti-tank/MEQ/TEQ threat that is Centurions. For those points I could add another 5 devastators  w/ 2x lascannons, and 6 devastators with 3x Missile Launchers, and though the range on those guys is both 48" They are for sure killing fewer vehicles and MEQ/TEQ models, so you might think this is a good plan, but we've got a lot of campers already and may run out of terrain. Plus Centurions can Skies of Fury out of the SR, admittedly without a Locator beacon, but still that gets them into 24" shooting range really fast.
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sephiroth081184
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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 18 2014, 04:21

Alright, a tournament - Here is an alternative msu list with lots of dakka.

Your SM ally has seemingly enough of AT and lots of high priority targets, so lets bring some seemingly low priority targets along with lots more dakka than most expect and some serious first turn trolling.

HQ
Baron Sarthonyx ( for the +1 on roll for first turn and stealth for the beast pack)
Total = 105


Troops
5x Kabalite warriors - 1x Blaster, Venom w/ extra Cannon = 125

5x Kabalite warriors - 1x Blaster, Venom w/ extra Cannon = 125

5x Kabalite warriors - 1x Blaster, Venom w/ extra Cannon = 125


Elite
Splinterborn Unit - 3x Trueborn w/ 2x splinter cannon, Venon w/ extra cannon = 121

Splinterborn Unit - 3x Trueborn w/ 2x splinter cannon, Venon w/ extra cannon = 121

Splinterborn Unit - 3x Trueborn w/ 2x splinter cannon, Venon w/ extra cannon = 121


Fast attack
3x Beastmasters w/ 5x khymera, 4x Razorwing = 156


Consider your SM ally as your can opener with this list, literally Wink

Thats a lot of dakka! Its useless against Armor but will wear out the toughest of foes in pure volume. A minimum of 96 poisoned shots at 36'' per round, only increasing from there as you get closer, assuming that your units survive long enough(unlikely but i would see your SM ally as having higher priority targets).

The Baron goes with the beast pack moving from cover to cover and hopefully obliterating whatever it touches on turn 2.

On a sidenote: I would love to see Vect in such a list aswell, primarily as he can seize on a 4+ roll which is a huge psychological factor in itself. Vect is also a monster with his Obsidian orbs and CC, but would require some wyches/incubi or preferrably some grots for majority toughness 5 to wreck havoc as an assault squad. But such a strategy would require lots of points from the list above for a transport which could in theory get blown up on turn 1 and his squad would be on foot from turn 1...which is bad Razz

Let me know what you think and good luck Smile

Seph
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 18 2014, 10:02

At nwabudikemorgan: Sounds like you have given that some good thought! When you put it like that I think you could have a good force there! (I play a very different style of space marine list- drop pods, rhinos, marines, sternguard, dreads- lots of boots on the ground! Thats the only reason I question that list, because it would be effectively a new army to me :PAlthough, if I had the models I would love to try it! )
I can't say I have ever used Centurions but if they don't get picked on first turn they could be very potent! Dark Eldar troops are more "full of win" than Marines but if you end up playing a game with multiple objectives, it might be hard to hold on to any by the end, particularly if the DE vehicles go down because then Kabalites are doomed. If anything, I almost wouldn't play for objectives, obviously take ones you are guaranteed and contest if you need to but with these two lists I would aim to table my opponent or at least remove all his scoring units

I like the above list for full dakka potential and I do like the risk it involves to field it. But sometimes, particularly if you don't know who the enemy are, you have to have a back up plan and I would need to have some more AT potential in there i.e. a Ravager just to aid in removing lunchboxes!
1000 points is a difficult number to work with I think, for anything above 1000 you can make lists that cover all angles, but at 1000 its difficult to maximize effectiveness!

I still stand by the second list you made but swap the dissie raider for a venom- its difficult to do something with the haemy though. I wouldn't know what to do with him, perhaps start with the trueborn and take a liquifier or disembark and take the glass sniper rifle thing available to insta kill some HQs? (not particularly competitive or points sensible but it at least gives him sa potential use!) I don't know, I struggle with 1000 point lists personally, I would much rather 500, 750, 1500+!

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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 18 2014, 16:02

@Sephiroth; Totally dig the list... but I've only got 4 Venoms in my possession, my khymera haven't arrived in the mail yet, and I don't have the cash to push the issue in the next week before the tourney.

@Grub; Swapping the Dissie Raider for a Venom w/Kabbies + Blaster, adding in 3 wracks as additional scoring, and I'm feeling decent about this list. 9pts shy, but what can you do?

@Nwabudikemorgan; Thoughts on current incarnations of my lists?
As for yours, ya scouts can easily enough get 2+, concern is when all the Ignores Cover from Wave Serpent Spam comes out and shreds them. But you're right on the money with the Cents, forgot how much dakka they put out and how hard it'd be to match that.

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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 19 2014, 10:25

@Laughingcarp wrote:
@Grub; Swapping the Dissie Raider for a Venom w/Kabbies + Blaster, adding in 3 wracks as additional scoring, and I'm feeling decent about this list. 9pts shy, but what can you do?


That sounds good to me!

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 20 2014, 05:26

Those 9 points I'm missing; gristly trophies on my Ravager?

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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 20 2014, 10:13

Yeah why not' might come in handy :p

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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 21 2014, 10:09

A quick revision to clarify for my partner and everyone else;
Haemy
3 Trueborn, 2 SC, Venom w/SC
3x 10 Kabbies, SC, Raider w/NS, SR
5 Kabbies, Blaster, Venom w/SC
3 Wracks
Ravager w/NS, FF, GT
996/1000

5 scoring units comprised of 38 models; 9 splinter cannons; 31 splinter rifles (TL while in boats); 6 DL
Should be able to help finish cracking open enemy armour, then tear apart all the juicy innards. Wracks start in reserve in the hopes of grabbing last-second home base objective. Haemy deploys likely with kabbies, who then hop into their boat while the haemy jumps in with Trueborn.
Still sound good?

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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 21 2014, 21:18

sounds good, I tried it today but without the wracks and put flicks on the raider and it worked well. Didn't feel it lacked AT actually, had to be careful once the raiders got popped, played against orks with killa cans, helicopters and lots of boys! Still managed to win but it was touch and go once the transports exploded and the warriors were stranded. But if your good at FF or jinks shouldn't be to much of a problem!

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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 23 2014, 16:06

Sweet thanks for the summary! Any tips on how to play it? Did you keep your range advantage as long as possible, or push up to use kabbies?
And did you feel the FF actually helped? 'Cause there are only a few armies that have enough ignores cover to make me worry about it, right.

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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 26 2014, 22:11

With Orcs perhaps it is different, because he came towards me I could happily move about at combat speed and pump out more shots. The Venoms sat back a little, the 36" bubble is very nice. I think in that game, and other games I've used similar lists I think you have to sometimes risk it and either get into rapid fire range asap or have enough shots from other transports going in to guarantee that you can finish of a squad at a time.

I would say that getting the kabbies into 12" was important- especially against that many men! I found the FF to actually be very important on gunboats. Because if either way you are going to get a 5+, I would take the 5++ and still be able to shoot at full BS. If you jink from a couple of glances but then can't unload into whatever is the biggest threat i.e. you have to snapfire, even splinter racks aren't going to help much. Nightshields on the raiders seemed perhaps a tad redundant on the raiders in this case but I could see there uses. On the venoms and the ravager though it was important!

Keeping the range advantage with the venoms and the ravager was important, I led with the raiders but made sure that they were always supported by the venoms and the ravager. By keeping everything together it made it difficult for him to pick off weaker units and made it easier for me to get rid of the real threats which involved getting rid of the choppers and shoota boys! But in my experience, the dice are cruel and probability is a lie. Therefore getting more shots out maximises the potential despite the added risk. I know that this sort of list & play style has been effective against all manner of MEQ armies and Tau as well.


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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 30 2014, 15:34

First test run today. I played cautiously, used everything you just explained to me (keeping Ravager/Venoms at range, working on rapid-fire with Kabbies, keeping my army close enough to support itself) and removed the Wracks in favour of FFs on the Raiders.
Totally worth it.

Emperor's Will, vs mass-Loota Orks & Astra Militarum Blobs. We ended with a tie Turn 7, but if it had ended on 6 or 5 we would have won. Kabbies murdered anything they pointed at, of course. Trueborn and venoms did great the first half of the match, then between the trueborn, venoms, and one kabbie group only managed to kill ~7 infantry models in the last 3 turns despite having all of their weapons within range and LoS. Dice fail on that one. Yarrick, Priest and about a dozen guards charged my pal's Centurions. Coming to the rescue, I counter-charged a kabbie squad right in there. Dumb move, in hindsight. Did manage to kill 7 guardsmen in CC over 4 turns before getting wiped. Kept Yarrick tied up long enough if it hadn't gone to 7 he wouldn't have nabbed linebreaker.
Overall I'd consider it a success. We didn't get tabled, we didn't lose, most of our two armies survived. I'm happy with the list!

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PostSubject: Re: Doubles Tourney, list HELP please!   Doubles Tourney, list HELP please! I_icon_minitimeThu May 01 2014, 09:02

Brilliant, it's satisfying when tactics play out as you wanted them!
Even with all that venom spam that sounds like a hard list to come up against- When you have to face that many models it can be hard if you don't have enough boots on the ground!
I would imagine that with that list and your allies list getting a draw against so many blobs of men is impressive, I would be very interested to here how you two do against less horde-like armies!

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