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 can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?

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django_unchained
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PostSubject: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 04 2014, 14:09

Currently running:

Vect

3X10 warriors with splinter cannon
9 warriors with blaster, vect's unit
5 warriors with blaster
5 warriors with blaster

3X3 splinterborn

4 raiders w/ splinter racks
5 venoms with dual cannons

3 ravagers triple lance


I'm wondering if covens can be aa competitive as this? If so, what kinda list?


Last edited by django_unchained on Fri Apr 04 2014, 18:08; edited 2 times in total
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 04 2014, 15:54

I see no reason that one couldn't do Coven as competitive as that list though this would depend on your definition of what a Coven is or isn't. If you're of the belief that Coven means one can't field Ravagers or something like that, then no, you probably couldn't be as competitive. But, as long as your concept of Coven is simply 'taking Haems as HQ and lots of Coven units' then, yes, it would be easy.

I'm guessing that's a 2000 list, though you appear to have left off some upgrades or something. My quick math pegs it at a little north of 1900.

My Coven list would be a lot of Wracks with Liquifiers, a Grot Bomb, assorted Haem HQs, and Ravagers and Trueblasters for anti-mech. It would hold objectives better and tend to do more infantry killing with flamers and assault than your old list, but it would be better at killing mech and also be much more of an assault threat by a substantial margin.

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can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? K93hWhs
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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 04 2014, 16:58

This list is 1848 points.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 04 2014, 17:45

If so, I did my math really badly, let me double check...

I double checked my math. I got 1918.
Maybe double check what you listed the army as containing? The only presumption I'm making is that 'Splinterborn' is 2x s.cannon Trueborn - but I don't see any way to massage that to get you to 1850 anyway.
Otherwise you may be a competitive 1850 force because you're fielding 1918 Wink

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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 04 2014, 18:05

Crap you're 100% correct. I apologize. Let me edit the list
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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 04 2014, 18:09

This should come to 1844
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 04 2014, 18:48

I do get 1844 now myself.

But back to the original point - yes, Coven can be as competitive as this list depending on your definition of 'Coven'. But, they will play differently. Don't mistake playstyle changes with competitiveness changes.

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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 04 2014, 19:01

@Thor665 wrote:
I do get 1844 now myself.

But back to the original point - yes, Coven can be as competitive as this list depending on your definition of 'Coven'. But, they will play differently. Don't mistake playstyle changes with competitiveness changes.

Thanks for the insight, everyone I encounter calls this list cheesy... And I pretty much blow away my opponents each game. I don't want to be hated, so I'm wondering if coven can be very decent but not viewed as much as cheese.?
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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 04 2014, 19:41

The 'cheesy' part is probably the Venoms. It's not our fault our transports are excellent AI sources. If the argument comes up, opponents conveniently forget they're made of wet tissue paper...
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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 04 2014, 19:43

@DingK wrote:
The 'cheesy' part is probably the Venoms. It's not our fault our transports are excellent AI sources. If the argument comes up, opponents conveniently forget they're made of wet tissue paper...

This has amen written all over it... Like WTF we have T3 5+ models in armor 10... Are we just supposed to have storm bolters on our transports?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 04 2014, 20:41

Also, just by comparing to other vehicles, I don't get how the Venom looks cheesy.

The Heldrake is probably still the best overall non-super heavy vehicle in the core game, the Wave Serpent competes with it (arguably is better) and is, undoubtedly, the best transport in the game. The Razorback has more transport capacity than a Venom, better armor, more hull points, also has smoke launchers and searchlights, similar ability to damage infantry, better ability to damage mech, and costs the same.

Admittedly people call Razorback spam cheesy too.

The Chimera also has better armor, searchlights and smoke launchers, more anti infantry shooting, better anti-mech shooting, more hull points, a lower BS, and a higher transport capacity. It also costs the same as a Venom.

I'm comparing these things to the Venom before it pays for the 2nd s.cannon too - so really you're paying more for the Venom. 10 points to get 6 poison 4+ shots at AP 5 I think 10 points is pretty reasonable for that as an upgrade, especially since our vehicles are as expensive as far more durable and multi-purpose options that other armies get. Compared to other base line transports the Venom is hardly mind blowingly better. Heck, with the way the new rules work I'd probably prefer being able to put my Blaster Warrior builds into Razorbacks or Chimera - it would be more powerful and would cost less.

I'd offer to take Razorbacks or Chimera for some of your squads instead of Venoms. Then let them see if they still think Venoms are overpowered.

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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 04 2014, 21:23

I guess the main point is most other armies can afford to have part of their units footslog. We can't, so we often run more transports compared to our opponent. Still, every single one of their infantry weapons can take those down, so... Cry babies, all of them.  Razz 
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 04 2014, 23:51

Our vehicles are impervious to the generic infantry weapon of the IG.
Also the DE. Wink
I think that is it though...though I'll admit I can't recall what 'gants are packing nowadays, but they're kind of not even run anymore so it's mildly meaningless regardless.

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 05 2014, 01:30

@Thor665 wrote:

I'd offer to take Razorbacks or Chimera for some of your squads instead of Venoms. Then let them see if they still think Venoms are overpowered.

I want a refrigerator magnet with this quote on it.

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PostSubject: Re: can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs?   can coven lists be as competitive as kabal lisrs? I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 05 2014, 01:37

So Tue!
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