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 How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list?

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astorre
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PostSubject: How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list?   How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list? I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 31 2011, 14:44

I'm looking to gauge different opinions as to what is a good range/number of darklight weapons for any given points level for a balanced list. Balanced being defined as being able to compete in close combat, anti-vehicle & anti-infantry shooting, and out-manouvering. Thank you!
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list?   How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list? I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 31 2011, 18:09

I think this is actually an incredibly difficult question to answer as there are lots of differing aspects to the various dark light weapons (a blast pistol is not the same as a Lance on a Raider) not to mention different uses (lance on Warrior raider vs. lance on Wych raider - totally different) not to mention things like the Haywire weapon set, Baron Sathy, or Grotesques which are totally different yet still applicable to anti-mech strategies.

The real and most truthful answer is "depends on your play environment, your army list, what other anti-mech units you field, your overall game plan, and a bit of personal preference."

My made up answer that is ...mostly semi-accurate and seems to please newer players is "1 darklight weapon per 100 points." So, 10 at 1000, and 18-19 at 1850, et cetera, et cetera.

Hope that helps.

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theblackjackal
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PostSubject: Re: How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list?   How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list? I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 31 2011, 20:15

Yeah, that's generally the benchmark I usually run, but I sometimes go beyond that mostly due to the majority of my darklights being blasters, but since I typically run Venoms with the twin cannons and I tend to play against Tau and Imperial Guard (which aren't really all that great in close combat, although Guard blobs can be dangerous), so I can afford to skimp on the butt side.

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list?   How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list? I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 31 2011, 20:22

I use the 1 per 100 point rule, altho I'm willing to count things like Haywires and Heatlances in aswell (altho I still want enough Lances and Blaster so I'll have some reliable long/medium range antitank).

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Fletch
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PostSubject: Re: How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list?   How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list? I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 31 2011, 21:45

I honestly hate these types of questions; Dark Light does not soley define DE but that's what many people basically belittle the army down to. Good lists are not equation driven. DE have one of the most diverse lists to build from so don't short change it by trying to "paint by numbers"

These topics do more harm than good to new players both to the game and to the army. I'd hate to have them build lists thinking if they don't hit that magical numer of Dark Light weapons (Army Points / X = Y) they should start over usualy by dropping unit A for unit B for no other reason than unit B has Dark Light weapons.

Pretty soon DE players are no better than Space Pups (Long Fangs) or GKs being defined by the amount of Rifleman Dreads, and the list goes on.

A balanced list should have as many Dark Light weapons as the player feels are necessary based on their experience, type of playstyle, and the composition of the players list and not simply (X/Y = Z)

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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list?   How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 01 2011, 00:57

Good God....1 per 100pts, Ive just look at all my lists made with new dex and not eve one have this ratio....more likely 1 per 150-200.

@Fletch
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list?   How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 01 2011, 04:23

@GreenAcid - even as I said when I proffered that 1/100 ratio I said it was a made up answer and gave the real answer before it.

If you win with 1/150-200 ratio than that is awesome. I suspect you wouldn't win where I play, which is why I have a different ratio, which is also awesome. It's a very subjective concept.

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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list?   How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 01 2011, 15:04

In my 2K list I had at Wargames con I think I had somewhere around 23 Dark lance weapons.

However, my play-style made better use of haywire weaponry than the dark light weapons.

Most of the time my dark light weapons were taking out terminators or light armor.

Playstyle makes a much bigger difference that actual number of weapons, in my opinion.

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astorre
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PostSubject: Re: How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list?   How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 01 2011, 16:01

I was merely curious as to some people's opinions, I must throughly apologize if my question inspired such passionate hatred among the more wizened kabalites. I like my list I play with now but I have trouble punching through mechanized armies and if I don't get first turn I really struggle gaining the upper hand.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list?   How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 01 2011, 16:23

First turn is a semi perennial DE issue. It's important to understand that setting up for first turn is not the same as setting up for second - we should probably do some sort of basic setup tactica thread sometime, it's important.

If you list has trouble punching through armor than you are either doing one or two things wrong.

1. Your target priority is messed up.
2. You need more anti-armor in the list.

I always strongly encourage players with this simple thought - if you're having trouble with 'X' take more of whatever helps you do 'X' until you're not having problems. It sounds silly for being so simplistic, but you'd be amazed how many people post list with comments like 'having trouble with horde' and there they sit with no assault and hordes of anti-tank shooting. It doesn't matter if I think you have too much/too little anti-armor, if you're having trouble killing armor you need more anti-armor power in the list, straight up.

If you'd like you can always post up your usual list in the army lists section. I prowl it regularly (as do a few other Archons with heads attached right way round) and I suspect we'd be happy to offer thoughts on improving the functionality of the list.

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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list?   How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 01 2011, 16:24

@astorre wrote:
I was merely curious as to some people's opinions, I must throughly apologize if my question inspired such passionate hatred among the more wizened kabalites. I like my list I play with now but I have trouble punching through mechanized armies and if I don't get first turn I really struggle gaining the upper hand.

This is a Dark Eldar site. Passionate hatred is kind of "our thing" Twisted Evil

Like others have said, its not a cut and dry question. The DE codex has so many viable options and different playstyles its not as easy as get more long fangs and missile launchers.

With all the different options, dark lances, blasters and blast pistols, the pistols being an overpriced waste BTW, then you look at other options like haywire or heatlances and then the Grotesques and rending beasts, it does take a bit of consideration of what exactly it is you are trying to do.

Mech is one of the tougher match ups for DE, since so much of our shooting is anti-infantry.

That is one of the reasons I personally love haywire grenades and haywire blasters, those weapons could care less about armor value. There is an inherent weakness is using them, but my playstyle works well with it.

All that being said, I include a fair amount darklight weaponry in my lists.

I had never considered the weapon per points ratio. Rather my method of determining how much was enough was looking at other typical mech type lists, IG and BA in particular, and then incuding enough shots by unit rather than number of shots to shoot at each armored threat.

For example, a typical BA mech list will have 4 razorbacks, 2 BAAL predators and 2 or 3 predators or riflemen dreads.

Summed up that is 8 armored targets. I need to be able to shot at each one every turn.

So it doesn't make a bit of difference if I have a trueborn unit with 1 darklance or 4 blasters or 4 blaster and 2 darklances, I can only shoot at 1 target.

What I do is to ensure if I expect to face 8 armored targets, I will need to be able to shoot at each one at least once per turn. Assuming I will hit only 2/3 of the time, I would ideally want 12 separate units that can shoot at armor per turn.

We can accomplish with ravagers, raiders, trueborn, warriors with blasters, scourges, reavers and wyches/bloodbrides equipped with haywire weaponry.

So a quick look at my most recent list

2 x trueborn with blasters
wyches( haywire)
bloodbridess (haywire)
2 x raiders
4 x warriors with a blaster
3 x ravagers
scourges ( haywre blasters)


all added up I have 11 dedicated darklight weapons and an additional 3 units with haywire weaponry, a total of 14 anti-armor threats.

anyhoo, my thoughts on the correct amount.


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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list?   How much Dark Light weaponry in a balanced list? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 01 2011, 22:45

@Thor665 wrote:
@GreenAcid - even as I said when I proffered that 1/100 ratio I said it was a made up answer and gave the real answer before it.

If you win with 1/150-200 ratio than that is awesome. I suspect you wouldn't win where I play, which is why I have a different ratio, which is also awesome. It's a very subjective concept.
+1

It was sarkasm, no har feelings intended.....Im quite sure Im gonna get my butt kicked bym mech list....Most of times it cuz I dont see point in bringing 15-20 AT weapons for 1k-1.5k game....my opponents on the other hand magaged to squize 4-5 vehicles in 400pt game(and I lost this game ofc). It all depends on your play style, yes but more important is how your friends play....in the end splinter spam can do a f*** about heavy mech list.


Funny thing is, with the old dex my DL on raiders did more damage then new ones....now I just ziip through board and tank-shock anything I can.....maybe 6ed will change it.

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