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WarAdmiral
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WarAdmiral
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PostSubject: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 28 2014, 03:36

So spit-balling around and wanting to create an army that I think would be very fun for me I came up w/ these 2 lists. Being new around DE and wanting to be competitive w/ the list Id like to get some feedback from the city on this. I could be very wrong with this but Id like some feedback on it from the vets. A 1000 pt. armies:

Army #1
HQ
Baron

Troops
10x Hellion
Helliarch w/ SC/SP
10x Hellion
Helliarch w/ Agon/SP

5x Wyches
Wych w/ Razorflails
Venom-NS/Splintercannon

Elites
Haemonculus
Huskblade/Soul Trap/Spilnter Pistol
8x Incubi
Raider w/ NS

995 pts

Army #2
HQ
Baron

Troops
10x Hellions
Helliarch w/ SC/SP

10x Hellions
Helliarch w/ Agon/SP

Elites
1x Haemonculus
Argon/Soul Trap/Splinter Pistol
8x Incubi
Raider w/ NS

Fast Attack
6x Jetbikes
Arena Champion w/ Agon
1x Blaster

1000 pts
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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 28 2014, 06:59

Well... At 1K points, those hellions really are a lot more imposing. Incubi are too.

between the two I like the second one better for the speedy objective contesting bike squad. Hellions are likely to see action and possibly get tied up, making it tougher (potentially) to get free in time. Gives you one more option to do so. I do prefer more troops, even at 1000. But contesting might be enough with the bikes. So... Try number two and give it a go first.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 28 2014, 15:50

I will admit right off the bat I usually am not a huge fan of these 'pick a list' posts, so I'm not going to bother picking one, I'm just going to point out issues with them that I see.

@WarAdmiral wrote:

Troops
10x Hellion
Helliarch w/ SC/SP
10x Hellion
Helliarch w/ Agon/SP
First off - the stun claw is a lie, it is a terrible weapon and isn't good. You may need to play a few games for yourself to realize this (my suggestion to you is to go ahead and set up a few practice assaults - attack various units that you might normally see, and then use Claw Hellions on them - see what happens. I think you'll discover it is terrible.

Second off - are you a Marine player? This looks like the Troop selection of a Marine player, not a Eldar player. You have 20 T3 5+ save models as almost your entire troop lineup...and are planning to use them to assault. Your third option is a 5 man squad of T3 6+ save models...that is also an assault unit.

Vet Hint: They will all die quite quickly.

Additional thought: with the boosts the Baron gives, a single mob of 20 is probably better than 2 of 10, because that way all the Hellions benefit from his special effects and hit and run.

Final thought - check out the power lance, compare and contrast it to the Agoniser for points and also think about how your Hellion unit probably has hit and run as an option. It's a pretty good alternate to the Aggie.

@WarAdmiral wrote:
5x Wyches
Wych w/ Razorflails
Venom-NS/Splintercannon
I don't see this unit helping you too much. I'd take some HWGs on it, honestly, and I think the Razorflail is just vain hope. 5 generic wyches isn't going to be able to deal with much with or without the flail.

@WarAdmiral wrote:
Elites
Haemonculus
Huskblade/Soul Trap/Spilnter Pistol
8x Incubi
Raider w/ NS
The Haem is vastly too expensive and also an odd setup - what IC do you expect him to beat up in h2h combat to activate his Soul Trap? They're are not many he's even swinging on first, and that presumes he manages to wound them.

Also, at 1000 points, this unit is way too expensive while still being pretty fragile (it's 8 T3 Marines with FNP...how hard do you think that is to kill?) If it was me, I'd drop this entire unit for more Troops and some Heavy slots. If you want an affordable Deathstar, I'd at least consider 3 Grots, who pair up better with the Haem anyway - Incubi pair better with an Archon because they need the assault grenades.

@WarAdmiral wrote:
Fast Attack
6x Jetbikes
Arena Champion w/ Agon
1x Blaster
So the only thing Army 2 does is drop the Wyches and take this.
I'm not even sure what you're thinking here.

Umm, if you want to go this way, I'd at least drop the Champion and the Blaster and take 2x Heat Lance, I don't think the +1 leadership is really that game breaking for you with this unit, and at least the 2x lances will give you better shooting threat when/if you decide to shoot, and your army could use the anti-mech firepower.

Hope some of that helps,
Thor.

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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 29 2014, 03:05

Lost of great info here.  My thoughts were to create a very fast army too get up in the face the opponent quickly.  Since the Hellions were listed as a troop option I figured they be a viable option to use as an assault unit.  The Archon was actually my first choice to pair up w/ the Incubi and have no idea why I changed it out.  Seems like my best troops option will be Warriors and Wyches in 10x squads.  

So is it worth keeping Baron and a 10x Hellion squad or should I drop them all together and get some heavy support?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 29 2014, 03:48

You're asking a multitude of questions, and the real answer with Dark Eldar is usually 'that depends'.

We're not a codex with a couple broken units, we're a codex with a variety of units that do a number of different things with some interesting overlap - it's why we're still a relevant mid-tier codex despite being one of the oldest, we're not a gimmick army and so rule changes or meta shifts don't marginalize us they way they will with other codices.

I've played DE since 3rd, and have seen a lot of different builds come and go. Even now, as a player who feels he's 'seen it all' I occasionally see someone place high at a major tournament with a DE list that I just look at for a while and go "...whut?". Some of that is probably meta, but the rest is that the codex has a lot of play to it.

So, to answer your questions;

Are max squads an option? Yes.
Are they the best option? Maybe. Maybe not. I personally run minimized Warriors and mid sized Wyches and I do quite well - but others do differently and report success as well. I think my method is the best, but clearly it is not the only way. Though I do think at 1000 that max squads are a fool's game.

Is the Baron worth it with 10 Hellions? Well...maybe, maybe not.
I personally would tend towards 'no' and if I was going to mess around with Hellions at 1000 I'd take at least 15. That said, are you planning on another HQ? If so I might drop him altogether, if not I might choose to go Beasts with him instead and have a sacrifice deathstar, or you could go with the aforementioned 15 Hellions and have a scoring deathstar.

I think the more important questions you should be asking are not about 'is X worth it' because the answer will always be 'depends' (unless 'X' is 'Mandrakes' - then the answer is 'no')
But a better question is 'I want to use X, how can I use it effectively at Y points?

Do you wish to use Baron or not?
Do you want to use Incubi or not?

At 1000 I will say, and I doubt any credible DE player would disagree - you only have the points at 1000 to make one happen effectively, not both.
I'll admit I personally wouldn't even bother with Incubi till 2000 points - and I'd discourage anyone from trying to make them work at anything less than 1500.
Baron is a lot more affordable, so is a more functional package at 1000, in addition to already filling an obligatory spot and having decent army synergy, so he can work, but for him I'd advise a decent pile of Hellions or going with Beastmasters to support him. He needs a cloud of quick assaulty things to take advantage of his special rules - otherwise there is no point to taking him, because his own combat abilities are weak, and the +1 to side selection is hardly worth the investment if he's otherwise a lump on the table.

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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 29 2014, 04:25

Why 1000 pts is this is a starting point for the army as its what I could afford to get and get on the table playing and then increase to higher points in the future.  There is no other 40K army I really have any desire to play.  Love the models and the speed factor they bring and there shear ruthlessness of their story.    

So w/ that being said, I've got some 1500+ armies built and trying to weed them down to 1000 is shear torture.  The "it depends factor" is exactly how I feel building a DE army at 1000 pts.  It seems at higher point values its a bit easier to put things together and have units for specific means.  

Yes I do want to use Baron w/ a decent size Hellion squad, but at 1000 pts its hard to not take away from other units.  So there is the "it depends factor".

Yes I do want to use Incubi bc I believe they great killing unit, but can be picked apart left in the open after a successful assault.  So again there is the "it depends factor".

Then like you said it'll be hard to make both work at 1000 pts.  Seems to go w/ Warriors and Wyches and then decide on a HQ will be what will work best at 1k. Honestly choosing a HQ is my biggest dilemma bc it seems like certain HQ option work best w/ certain troop/elite options.
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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 29 2014, 06:02

Ok so going away from Baron and the Hellions and keeping w/ an Archon I've put this together.

HQ - attached w/ Incubi
Archon
CB/WWP/HB/VB/SF

Succubus(75pts) - attached w/ Wyches
HWG/VB

Elites - attached w/ Archon
4x Incubi
Venom
FF/NS/SC

Troops
9x Warriors
Warrior w/ assault weapon
Raider
NS/SR

9x Warriors
Warrior w/ assault weapon
Raider
NS/SR

Wyches - attached w/ Succubus
9x Wyches
Hekatrix
HWG/Agon/SP
Raider
NS

Idea is to have Succy & Wyches come from reserve via WWP once the Archon/Incubi moved up the table, hopefully staying in cover.  Possibly w/ one of the Warrior squads or start both Warrior squads on the table.

Questions:
988 pts so far, where can I add the extra pts.?
Deployment of both Warriors or 1 squad and bring other via WWP?
No heavy support, should I add at least 1 Ravy/flier(pt. dependant here)?

Feel free to tear it down and build it back up.  So many options w/ DE I love toying w/ their lists and mix and matching.

EDIT: I missed on not adding SR to Raiders, edited to fix. 988 pts w/ some to spare.
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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 29 2014, 14:01

What's the purpose of the Webway Portal in this list?

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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 29 2014, 14:40

Something I've personally taken away regarding max/min squads, and how I view our current play.

I believe in running MSU on our embarked units and Max Squads for anything on the ground. Here's my reason:

Transports are armor ten all around. S7 weapons have a 50% of penetrating them. Once penetrated they explode on a 5+ roll, but potentially a 3+ roll. At that point everything inside gets wounded on a 3+, and then you need a 5-6+ to survive. Or in other words. Whenever you're opponent pops a transport, he's going to eliminate 50% of the occupants. In a five man warrior squad that's an extra 20 points on whatever you paid for the raider. With a full squad? That's an extra 45 points. I feel like embarking full squads is literally just feeding your opponent kills.

On the other hand while our troops are amazing, the one mission we have difficulty with is purge the alien. Fielding full-size ground units makes it harder, though still in the opponents favor, to get kill points. 25 khymera and 5 beast masters is going to take forever to kill. 20 hellions behind the baron will be tough in the absence of ignore cover. 9-10 bikes zooming 50-60" around the board will be hard to kill if played right. Absurd as it would be I'd like to see 10 grotesques stomping around the board. 30 T5 wounds with feel no pain. Ha!

But that's just my two cents. I had success with full squad warrior gunboats like you are running. But I eventually stepped back and said, "You know, the 100 points that are going to die in an explosion could be better spent elsewhere."

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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 29 2014, 17:14

[quote="Thor665"]What's the purpose of the Webway Portal in this list?

To bring reserves through it further up the table closer to enemy for CC.


@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Something I've personally taken away regarding max/min squads, and how I view our current play.

I believe in running MSU on our embarked units and Max Squads for anything on the ground. Here's my reason:

Transports are armor ten all around. S7 weapons have a 50% of penetrating them. Once penetrated they explode on a 5+ roll, but potentially a 3+ roll. At that point everything inside gets wounded on a 3+, and then you need a 5-6+ to survive. Or in other words. Whenever you're opponent pops a transport, he's going to eliminate 50% of the occupants. In a five man warrior squad that's an extra 20 points on whatever you paid for the raider. With a full squad? That's an extra 45 points. I feel like embarking full squads is literally just feeding your opponent kills.

On the other hand while our troops are amazing, the one mission we have difficulty with is purge the alien. Fielding full-size ground units makes it harder, though still in the opponents favor, to get kill points. 25 khymera and 5 beast masters is going to take forever to kill. 20 hellions behind the baron will be tough in the absence of ignore cover. 9-10 bikes zooming 50-60" around the board will be hard to kill if played right. Absurd as it would be I'd like to see 10 grotesques stomping around the board. 30 T5 wounds with feel no pain. Ha!

But that's just my two cents. I had success with full squad warrior gunboats like you are running. But I eventually stepped back and said, "You know, the 100 points that are going to die in an explosion could be better spent elsewhere."

I have just swallowed my pride w/ DE and face the facts they we will die very easily and there are always going to be points left wasted bc of death. I figure max squads at least alleviate some of that. IMO...

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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 30 2014, 03:33

@WarAdmiral wrote:
To bring reserves through it further up the table closer to enemy for CC.
Which units though?

@WarAdmiral wrote:
I figure max squads at least alleviate some of that.  IMO...
Don't see why they would. Deaths via exploding vehicles are percentage of total deaths - larger squads would only alleviate set amounts of damage, not percentage amount of damage.

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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 30 2014, 03:49

Probably a Warrior and Wyche squad.

I guess it would be more a percentage.
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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 30 2014, 05:53

Not to derail your list but at 1000 pts there are some good units you could take -
Talos is excellent at low points -
Small wrack or wyche squads in venoms are cheap and excellent -

Now I agree with Thor on most points. At 1000 points pick your killer unit. There is nothing wrong with the Baron. But do you want a large Heliion squad or a Archon/Incubi squad? Pick one. Personally i would go Incubi. But do bear in mind who is giving this advice, lol. I'm not the most conventional player on the boards.

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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 30 2014, 06:44

@WarAdmiral wrote:


I have just swallowed my pride w/ DE and face the facts they we will die very easily and there are always going to be points left wasted bc of death.  I figure max squads at least alleviate some of that.  IMO...

I had the same reasoning. When I was using large squads of wyches. The problem with that mentality, is you're still giving your opponent free kills. Sure that five man squad that loses 3 warriors isn't as killy as the 10 man squad that loses 5. But your opponent did not gain an advantage point wise on you. You only lost 27 points as opposed to 45. So with wyches I began to use hydra gauntlets for that purpose. I may lose 3-4 wyches but the hydra gauntlet wych that survives can make up for the 3-4 lost. Warriors do not have an equivalent.

The point I'm trying to convey I guess is this. You say 9 warriors help alleviate the loss of warriors to explosions. 4x9 = 36. times 2 that's 72 points. for 72 points you can buy three trueborn with two splinter cannons. Effectively trading 8 rapid fire 24" shots for 12 36" shots. Drop the 4 extra wyches and you can probably give them a venom and have 24 shots.

You don't have to waste points or swallow your pride. You can crush your opponent's instead.

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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 30 2014, 13:02

About that portal though - I believe vehicles can't come in via it. Unless I've missed an update.
So that portal squad are going to need to drop their raider. I'd suggest the wyches.
If you do that though, and lose a couple of other vehicle upgrades, you can afford a Talos! And a portal talos is great fun, I've found.
Caveats: 1. I know you may not have a talos, and I hate it when people suggest using models I don't have, so sorry if that's the case. 2. I remembered you wanted something super fast and mobile, which a pain engine isn't, really.

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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 30 2014, 16:20

@Expletive Deleted wrote:

The point I'm trying to convey I guess is this. You say 9 warriors help alleviate the loss of warriors to explosions. 4x9 = 36. times 2 that's 72 points. for 72 points you can buy three trueborn with two splinter cannons. Effectively trading 8 rapid fire 24" shots for 12 36" shots. Drop the 4 extra wyches and you can probably give them a venom and have 24 shots.

You don't have to waste points or swallow your pride. You can crush your opponent's instead.

When you look at it that way makes sense.  Extra attacks would be what would help the survive-ability, killing more & taking less shots in return.  So maybe running as many Venoms sa I can is a better idea.  

@thesaltedwound wrote:

About that portal though - I believe vehicles can't come in via it. Unless I've missed an update.
So that portal squad are going to need to drop their raider. I'd suggest the wyches.
If you do that though, and lose a couple of other vehicle upgrades, you can afford a Talos! And a portal talos is great fun, I've found.
Caveats: 1. I know you may not have a talos, and I hate it when people suggest using models I don't have, so sorry if that's the case. 2. I remembered you wanted something super fast and mobile, which a pain engine isn't, really.

Yea your right went and reread it and no vehicles can enter play via it.  Was going off how I seen it played, which obviously was wrong.  

Adding in a Talos via the portal I would not be against and I could still maintain a speedy army going w/ smaller squads in Venoms.
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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 30 2014, 19:43

Can skyboards come through WWP or are they considered vehicles?
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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 30 2014, 22:14

They can, because they're jump infantry, not vehicles.

And play whatever you want to play, just make it work for you.

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PostSubject: Re: Armies utilizing Baron   Armies utilizing Baron I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 31 2014, 03:14

Going to continue to research and kick a few lists around until I can come up w/ something fun and competitive to play.

I can pick all the coolest models in the world to play but at the end of the day they need to be fielded on the table, be fun to play, and be effective to win games.
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