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 1500 pt list against necron

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Jicklenop
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PostSubject: 1500 pt list against necron   1500 pt list against necron I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 19 2014, 23:58

Hello, I'm brand new here, been playing for just over a year now. I have been trying a lot of different kinds of lists though, but recently have been doing a monthly tournament at my local game store. There are usually 6 to 7 players there, and most are of equal skill level, but 2 are pretty hardcore list builders. I have been trying to build lists to beat them recently but have been getting no where. One plays necrons, runs 3 annihilation barges, 3 ghost arks with 8 warriors each, and 2 destroyer lords with 4 wraiths each. The other runs a wave serpent with wraithguard and an HQ (I don't recall what it is) allied with marines, one drop pod with 5 marines multi melta and a captain I believe, and the rest of his list is marine bikes. Here is the most recent list I have built to try to get somewhere. I would love some critique and help, mainly just trying to beat the necron player but wouldn't mind beating the marine/eldar player as well

HQ:

Archon with combat drugs
blast pistol, huskblade, PGL
shadow field, and soul trap
(Deploying with incubi)

185pts

Elites:

Incubi x4 153pts
in a Venom x2 Splinter Cannons 65pts

Trueborn x4 with blasters 108 pts
in a Venom x2 Splinter Cannons 65pts

Trueborn x4 with blasters 108 pts
in a Venom x2 Splinter Cannons 65pts

Troops:

Warriors x10 with blaster and Splinter Cannon 115pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, FF, and DL 80pts

Warriors x10 with blaster and Splinter Cannon 115pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, FF, and DL 80pts

Warriors x10 with blaster and Splinter Cannon 115pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, FF, and DL 80pts

Heavy Support:

Ravager with 3x DL and FF 115pts

Ravager with 3x DL and FF 115pts

Total: 1499pts
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Jicklenop
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pt list against necron   1500 pt list against necron I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 25 2014, 03:44

No one has any insights?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pt list against necron   1500 pt list against necron I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 25 2014, 05:01

@Jicklenop wrote:
Here is the most recent list I have built to try to get somewhere. I would love some critique and help, mainly just trying to beat the necron player but wouldn't mind beating the marine/eldar player as well
Okay, well, glancing at their lists as you describe them neither of them seems particularly cheesy or brutal. You're facing barges not croissants and Eldar + Space marine Drop Pod...well, frankly that just sounds like an interesting list to me. So I don't think either are overly potent. I'll admit that puts me to thinking that the issue is either in your generalship, your list, or some combination thereof.

That said, this happens because DE...well, we're not very forgiving of mistakes and, gasp, Crons, MEQ, and Eldar are about as forgiving as it gets. So, certainly *some* of your issue could be that you're just making only as many mistakes as your opponents but...your army punishes you for them more.

So, let's just look at your army in very general terms and see what I think about it first;

@Jicklenop wrote:
Archon with combat drugs
blast pistol, huskblade, PGL
shadow field, and soul trap
(Deploying with incubi)
First off, thank you for noting where the IC goes, and also for including your Dedicated transports with the units buying them, it makes you list very legible, and I appreciate that.

This Archon is...well, for me personally I think he's too expensive for 1500, especially paired with Incubi. That's, let's see, over *400* points in a unit running around in a 2HP AV 10 open topped vehicle.

Just think about that. How hard is this unit to kill? Is it worth spending nearly 1/3 of your total points on? I don't personally think so, it's why I avoid these type of builds at 1500. DE die pretty easy, even "tough" DE units die pretty easy, and when you put this many points on the board you might as well shine a flashing light on them and paint 'target here first' on the hull.

Now, even if you want to go with this Archon Deathstar, one thing that really sticks out to me is the Blast Pistol. Really? How many times are you shooting that sucker per game? It's actually a pretty pricy upgrade, and it's on a unit that has functionally no need to ever waste time shooting anything. I'd at least drop that to save points.

@Jicklenop wrote:
Incubi x4 153pts
in a Venom x2 Splinter Cannons 65pts
For what they are this is fine, again, I probably wouldn't field them at 1500, but if you insist on the beatstick Archon this is a pretty solid escort tool.

@Jicklenop wrote:
Trueborn x4 with blasters 108 pts
in a Venom x2 Splinter Cannons 65pts

Trueborn x4 with blasters 108 pts
in a Venom x2 Splinter Cannons 65pts
I never complain about Trueblasters. These are fine.

@Jicklenop wrote:
Warriors x10 with blaster and Splinter Cannon 115pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, FF, and DL 80pts

Warriors x10 with blaster and Splinter Cannon 115pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, FF, and DL 80pts

Warriors x10 with blaster and Splinter Cannon 115pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, FF, and DL 80pts
These are okay, though I'll admit I'm a MSU guy more at heart. That said, you can see a weakness in your list insomuch as you're only managing to field 3 Troops at 1500 points (I generally would be fielding 4-6). This is because you're going with pricy Troop builds paired with the Incubi deal.

@Jicklenop wrote:
Ravager with 3x DL and FF 115pts

Ravager with 3x DL and FF 115pts
These are fine though, as with the Troops, I look askance at only having 2 at 1500. I'd generally have 3. But the individual builds are fine.


Okay, stepping back to look at your army as a whole I would say I consider you to have a couple of weaknesses that spring out at me;

Poor long range anti-mech

Now, in a funny way, this really shouldn't matter against the armies you're listing as giving you issues, since you do outrange them pretty well (though it never hurts to have more stuff to outrange them)

But, just as a point, if you go first, and your opponent isn't a total twit, the best anti-mech shooting you can manage is 3 Raiders with 1 shot each and 2 Ravagers with 3 shots each. Since we need about 3 shots to get a 'result' on average (vs. AV 12) that means you generate about 3 glances/pens on the enemy vehicles. That's...pretty weak, really. Especially since versus, say, the Necrons, you could theoretically really rip them up if you had a stronger initial barrage. The more damaged the enemy is the less damaged you are.

Lack of Target Saturation

Speaking of avoiding damage... Your list looks to be pretty easy to pick apart. You have one point sink assault unit, if I fear assault I pop it. You have two Ravs (AV 11 open topped sturdy beasts that they are) that represent a majority of your anti-mech firepower, again, pretty easy to dismantle if that's what I fear.

I do think you would benefit by trying to get a few more units on the board. DE are pretty affordable in our damage to cost ratio, and we are never good in our survivability to cost ratio, so in my opinion it is an advantage to have more units rather than "tougher" or "bigger" units.

I would suggest the link in my sig for the DE tactica may help you. It is out of date for a lot of the individual unit discussion, but the first section on general army tactics still holds very true for DE, and you may wish to look into it for possible helpful advice.



Now, as to your Necron issue. Without knowing what you're doing, it's hard to offer specific advice, but it looks like your goal should be trying to stay out on the 36" range bubble while trying to pick apart the Annihilation Barges first, and then move on to the troop transports. As long as you can angle your attack to stay on the outer edge of the bubble you should be able to limit his ability to bring his weaponry to bear as effectively for at least a turn or two, and then you should hopefully have a tempo advantage and be able to pick apart the rest. Don't just toss in your Trueborn and Incubi either, go in when there are ripe targets of opportunity, not just to leap out and Blaster a vehicle or assault a squad when most of the enemy army is still operational.

For the MEQ/Eldar alliance I would tend to think cover saves and FFs should keep you fairly safe from Drop Pods, and the Incubi and Archon can clear them after they drop. Torrent splinter cannon and Blaster the bikes, and if the Wraithguard ever manage to get close enough to matter you can splinter them too.

Hope some of that helps, feel free to ask questions.

Regards,
Thor.

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cluricaunne
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pt list against necron   1500 pt list against necron I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 25 2014, 13:34

So, I've never played tourney, or even a game store, my experience has been with some friends in a garage. I've faced Necron, Eldar, Tau, and IG. I've only been playing a few months.

With that being said, I think you are spending way too many points on your Archon, seems like a decent build at 1500 otherwise. Expect that everything you have will die, it's all expendable, we are Dark Eldar, afterall.

I would run the Archon almost bare, if he is for close combat, use him as such. Personally I would run him with a shadowfield (maybe) and the huskblade or an agonizer. I recommend you drop the rest and pick up another squad of wyches or kwars in a venom.

You can also pick up a few points dropping the flicker fields on the raiders. The 5+ save is nice, except that if the raider moves, you get that from a jink save too, as all skimmers have the jink rule.

That's just a couple of pointers from one newb to another, take it as you will.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pt list against necron   1500 pt list against necron I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 25 2014, 14:38

@cluricaunne wrote:
I would run the Archon almost bare, if he is for close combat, use him as such. Personally I would run him with a shadowfield (maybe) and the huskblade or an agonizer. I recommend you drop the rest and pick up another squad of wyches or kwars in a venom.

You can also pick up a few points dropping the flicker fields on the raiders. The 5+ save is nice, except that if the raider moves, you get that from a jink save too, as all skimmers have the jink rule.
Though I disagree with some of his ideas of how to run a bare Archon, I do agree with his point that you are running a very expensive Archon. I would submit that a better bare bones assault Archon would look more like 'v.blade/p.lance + Shadowfield' than what he is describing, but agree very much with his core message.

I had a period where I didn't go with FFs at all on vehicles...then the Tau and eventually Eldar codices hit the market. I think FFs remain pretty important as a result.

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Jicklenop
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pt list against necron   1500 pt list against necron I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 25 2014, 22:12

Thanks everyone for the input. I had usually played 2000 point games where I would run that archon with the incubi bodyguard. I'm willing to drop the archon and incubi to purchase a few more troops, but I'd like a few ideas for a new HQ. I was looking at Duke maybe, or if you should think to go even cheaper with a Haemonculus/ancient possibly. I started rebuilding the list, taking out the archon and incubi, was able to add another troop of kabalites. Another question I have, is it worth it to take a blaster in each of the warrior squads? or should I leave them out?
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pt list against necron   1500 pt list against necron I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 26 2014, 01:07

Agreed on the FFs, I took them off then put them right back on.

I've been starting to run night shields with FFs, which seems like a really bad use of points... but it's been keeping everything alive longer.

And against necron in particular night shields is a godsend.

The blaster, when I was running kabalites, I found to be very helpful. Expensive, yes, but when both your ravagers are smoldering remains you still have some anti-tank on the field. Plus it's good against terminators, and all heavy wearing armor douchebags of their ilk. At 1500 points they may still be too expensive though.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pt list against necron   1500 pt list against necron I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 26 2014, 01:32

@Jicklenop wrote:
but I'd like a few ideas for a new HQ. I was looking at Duke maybe, or if you should think to go even cheaper with a Haemonculus/ancient possibly.
That's a hard question to answer sans seeing the list. I will say that the Duke is a pretty surprisingly affordable force multiplier - but if you aren't working wyches or deep strike then he's probably not worth it just for his Warrior boost effect. You'd probably do as well custom building an Archon and would ooverall get more benefit.

I think Haems are great, I think Ancients are pretty subpar.

@Jicklenop wrote:
Another question I have, is it worth it to take a blaster in each of the warrior squads? or should I leave them out?
I always take blasters, and some people suggest they're not worth it at all.
For me, the tipping point is that Blasters are hardly bad shooting at infantry, and they also add the ability for your unit to damage vehicles if needed.

Still, if you're tossing in a lot of points to make an anti-infantry shooting force, you probably don't technically need them - I just always find them a good value.

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Jicklenop
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pt list against necron   1500 pt list against necron I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 26 2014, 22:05

Alright, here is a revised list from some of your suggestions along with a question:

HQ:

Haemonculus with a Hexrifle(?), liquifier, and Venom Blade
Deploying with a troop of Warriors

80pts

Elites:

Trueborn x4 with blasters 108 pts
in a Venom x2 Splinter Cannons 65pts

Trueborn x4 with blasters 108 pts
in a Venom x2 Splinter Cannons 65pts

Troops:

Warriors x10 with blaster and Splinter Cannon 115pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, FF, and DL 80pts

Warriors x10 with blaster and Splinter Cannon 115pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, FF, and DL 80pts

Warriors x10 with blaster and Splinter Cannon 115pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, FF, and DL 80pts

Warriors x10 with blaster 96pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, FF, and DL 80pts

Heavy Support:

Ravager with 3x DL and FF 115pts

Ravager with 3x DL and FF 115pts

Total: 1417pts

That leaves nearly 80 points to spend somewhere. My thoughts were to replace the Haem with an Archon with some upgrades, or possibly spend the points on nightshields for all the vehicles which would bring the final point total to 1497. Another thought was the Hexrifle, I haven't used it ever but I feel like it might be somewhat helpful since I don't plan on getting into liquifier range until I am assaulted
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Jicklenop
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pt list against necron   1500 pt list against necron I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 29 2014, 23:04

After reading Thor's tactica, I made a few more revisions to my list. I did decide to add nightshields to all my vehicles, just to try it out and see if I like it.

HQ:

Archon with combat drugs, blaster,
venom blade, and shadow field
(Deploying with trueborn)

120pts

Elites:

Trueborn x4 with blasters 108 pts
in a Venom with NS x2 Splinter Cannons 75pts

Troops:

Warriors x10 with blaster and Splinter Cannon 115pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, NS, FF, and DL 90pts

Warriors x10 with blaster and Splinter Cannon 115pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, NS, FF, and DL 90pts

Warriors x10 with blaster and Splinter Cannon 115pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, NS, FF, and DL 90pts

Warriors x10 with blaster and Splinter Cannon 115pts
in a Raider with Splinter Racks, NS, FF, and DL 90pts

Heavy Support:

Ravager with 3x DL, NS, FF 125pts

Ravager with 3x DL, NS, FF 125pts

Ravager with 3x DL, NS, FF 125pts

Total: 1498pts

I had one more thought of removing the Flicker fields from the Ravagers, one of the splinter cannons from the warrior squads, and the Archons Combat drugs to bring in a Haem with a hexrifle and venom blade to deploy with the warriors with the missing splinter cannon, not sure whether it would be worth it or not yet. Tournament is tomorrow so I will update on how it all went
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pt list against necron   1500 pt list against necron I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 30 2014, 00:05

I loved splinter racks when I was using them, but splinter racks and night shields are kind of counter intuitive. To shoot someone with your splinter rifles you have to be within 24 inches, most enemy basic weaponry has a 24" range. Meaning, you will rarely ever benefit from both upgrades. because if you're close enough to fire, next turn they'll likely be close enough to fire.

With the splinter racks you're definitely better off with the flicker fields as you'll see more ignore cover and possibly get assaulted. Blows people minds when you still get a save in assault on your vehicles.

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Jicklenop
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pt list against necron   1500 pt list against necron I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 30 2014, 00:17

That makes sense to me, never really thought about it like that. So if I drop the nightshields, what should I spend the extra points on?
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PostSubject: Re: 1500 pt list against necron   1500 pt list against necron I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 02 2014, 19:35

So I ran the last list I posted, played 3 games total. Tabled the first opponent, the MEQ/Eldar guy. I was super proud to actually have beaten him, rolled so many flicker field saves it was ridiculous!  Almost tabled the next opponent (black templar), he had one tank left that was immobilized and without a weapon, though he won because he got more kill points, and he had so few units to kill, which sucks but oh well. And the last opponent (tyranids) had 1 unit left, though we tied on objectives.  Overall, I really enjoyed my list, just need to work some more on my ability as a general. Thanks everybody for the help!
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