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 Desperate Allies in Big Guns

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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Desperate Allies in Big Guns   Desperate Allies in Big Guns I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 09 2014, 21:51

If I took the Tau Firebase Support Cadre in a game of Big Guns Never Tire, would the broadsides still cough up points for being destroyed since they aren't scoring? I know they can't hold objectives for me because of the alliance levels, but I'm not sure if they still pose that liability.
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Saintspirit
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PostSubject: Re: Desperate Allies in Big Guns   Desperate Allies in Big Guns I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 08:22

As far as I know, if a unit of allied Broadsides would be destroyed by your enemy in Big Guns Never Tire, they would give a victory point to him/her. This, because they are a Heavy Support choice, and completely destroyed Heavy Support choices provides a victory point in Big Guns Never Tire (correct me if there's something wrong here).

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Desperate Allies in Big Guns   Desperate Allies in Big Guns I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 09:26

I was about to agree with Saintspirit on this but then I wondered whether the Heavy Metal rule from Big Guns Never Tire overrules the non-scoring rule from Desperate Allies?

Desperate Allies says "if your primary detachment is in a desperate alliance, units from that allied detachment are nonscoring, non-denial units."

Heavy Metal says "in Big Guns Never Tire, your heavy support units are scoring units, not just your troops units".

Which takes precedence? I believe it should be the Desperate Allies rule but there are no rules to determine if that is the case.

Regardless of whether we accept that the Desperate Allies rule takes precedence, the Broadsides would indeed give up 1VP if destroyed as the requirement for this is that they are Heavy Support units, not scoring/denial units.

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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Desperate Allies in Big Guns   Desperate Allies in Big Guns I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 09:50

The other complication I was considering was since these are a formation I'm taking I'm not sure if they still count as my heavy supports at all.  They don't count as one of the 3 heavy support slots I take on the FOC anyway.

Thanks for the replies though, I'll start assuming they do cough up points and hope I don't get big guns too often.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Desperate Allies in Big Guns   Desperate Allies in Big Guns I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 09:58

They're still Heavy Support units. Some people have argued that they are some sort of mysterious 'slotless' units but there's nothing in the rules to support that.

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Desperate Allies in Big Guns   Desperate Allies in Big Guns I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 10:04

Would a Landraider that is taken as a dedicated transport score?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Desperate Allies in Big Guns   Desperate Allies in Big Guns I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 11:01

@Vasara wrote:
Would a Landraider that is taken as a dedicated transport score?

Not unless it was a transport for a heavy support unit. Dedicated transports counts as the slot that the unit comes from.

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Desperate Allies in Big Guns   Desperate Allies in Big Guns I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 11:14

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Vasara wrote:
Would a Landraider that is taken as a dedicated transport score?

Not unless it was a transport for a heavy support unit. Dedicated transports counts as the slot that the unit comes from.

I agree. The point here is that if it's not taken as heavy support its not it even if it would be in a normal list.

What does the data slate state out its units to be. For example in case of Tau fire cadre? Are they stated there that they are heavy support?

Desperate allies heavysupport scoring is a mystery for my too.

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commandersasha
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PostSubject: Re: Desperate Allies in Big Guns   Desperate Allies in Big Guns I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 11:31

Slightly off-topic, but related: if we took an Imperial Knight with our primary DE army (with suitable conversions, of course!), would it be scoring? Desperate Allies in BRB says no, C:IK says all Knights are scoring. Codex usually trumps BRB...

edit: Ignore stupid question: Knights only count as scoring in an IK army, not when taken as an Allied Knight Detachment!


Last edited by commandersasha on Mon Mar 10 2014, 11:39; edited 1 time in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Desperate Allies in Big Guns   Desperate Allies in Big Guns I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 11:33

@Vasara wrote:
I agree. The point here is that if it's not taken as heavy support its not it even if it would be in a normal list.

What does the data slate state out its units to be. For example in case of Tau fire cadre? Are they stated there that they are heavy support?

Not really sure what the relevance is. The DT counts as the same slot as the unit because there is a rule specifically saying so. Absent that rule they would count as whatever slot the codex categorises them as. There is no such rule in a dataslate so a Riptide is still an elite and a Broadside is still a heavy support. There is nothing in any of the 40k rules, supplements, codexes or any other source that would suggest otherwise. These 'slotless' entries that some people have commented on are pure fabrication.

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Desperate Allies in Big Guns   Desperate Allies in Big Guns I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 13:40

@Count Adhemar wrote:
There is no such rule in a dataslate so a Riptide is still an elite and a Broadside is still a heavy support. There is nothing in any of the 40k rules, supplements, codexes or any other source that would suggest otherwise. These 'slotless' entries that some people have commented on are pure fabrication.

Nor is there anything saying that they are Elite or HS? Unless stated othervice why would it get additional rules?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Desperate Allies in Big Guns   Desperate Allies in Big Guns I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 13:48

@Vasara wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
There is no such rule in a dataslate so a Riptide is still an elite and a Broadside is still a heavy support. There is nothing in any of the 40k rules, supplements, codexes or any other source that would suggest otherwise. These 'slotless' entries that some people have commented on are pure fabrication.

Nor is there anything saying that they are Elite or HS? Unless stated othervice why would it get additional rules?

They are chosen from the relevant codex, which defines them as such.

Quote :
The Army List Entries for each unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself.

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Desperate Allies in Big Guns   Desperate Allies in Big Guns I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 14:00

Ok. That clears it out.

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