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 What the Imperial Knight means for us

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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 07:45

I imagine most of us have seen the WD pages containing stats for the newest big guy on the battlefield, the Imperial Knight. Since we now know our enemy, let us consider how best to steal their soul and drink their tears.

What the Imperial Knights do

A short overview to remind us

It is a superheavy walker with 13/12/12, 6 hull points and a 4++ save against shooting but on one armour facing only.

It is armed with either a 36" blast meltagun, or a 2 shot battlecannon. It also has a Str D close combat weapon and a heavy stubber. For the lulz.

They have MEQ like WS, BS and I, with 3 attacks.

They can either be taken as armies in their own right or as allies for any Imperial army.

For anyone confused by what superheavy walker or Str D entails, such as myself, a brief precis -

A superheavy walker can move 12", split fire, move through cover, causes fear and has a stomp attack in close combat. In the Imperial Knight's case, it does not suffer results on the vehicle damage chart other than vehicle destroyed, which doesn't destroy it but rather shaves off more hull points. Note, that as it can split fire, it can shoot its main weapon at whatever, and its heavy stubber at whatever it would like to charge to make things legal.

Str D automatically wounds and penetrates armour. It adds +1 to the vehicle damage chart. It also causes instant death. This is often house ruled down slightly but for now, I will treat it stated here.

How is it going to be used

I see two main ways of using a Knight being common and depending on how it is being used, that will in some ways shape our response.

The first is for the Knight to form part of a static gunline. In this scenario, its duties will be to kick back and shoot some, while forming a formidable close combat deterrent and counter-attack unit.

The second is for the Knight to form part of an aggressive mobile army. In this scenario, its duties will be to keep pace with the Rhinos/Bikes/Whatever, drawing fire and laying down some support. Up close, it will be going after hard targets.

Our response to a static Knight

The main question here will be "Do I need to assault the gunline?". The answer is frequently yes. If the answer is no, then the next question becomes "Can I ignore it?"

It seems likely to me that the answer will often be yes. Certainly, if it is armed with the melta-weapon, its effect is likely to be somewhat muted on a Dark Eldar army. A night shielded Ravager can fire on such a Knight with impunity unless it moves forwards to engage. It seems likely that it will but that in itself can be exploited.

Regardless, it has a single template shot which does not ignore cover saves. That in itself limits the damage it can do to our army, particularly if we are not bunched up. If placed within the gunline, it is not going to be in melta range, which means that 1 in 3 times it will do a hull point at worse. If penetrates, it will probably explode, but what is new about that? For its purported cost of 37 naked wyches, that is not a huge deal to us.

Ignoring a 2 shot battlecannon is somewhat harder however. Nevertheless, it still might be the better option, as most Imperial forces are likely to be packing the same firepower elsewhere but on easier to hurt platforms. Without running the numbers, it seems easier to one-shot 2 Leman Russes, or shoot off their battlecannons, or just stunlock them into snapshots.

If we do have to assault the gunline, things get a little different, due to the Knight's ability to effortlessly destroy some of our best assault units such as Grotesques and Taloi. However, we do have a super obvious answer here;

Haywire Wyches.

On average, a full squad of 10 are probably not going to kill it, but they will come close. Their 4++ in combat also makes them one of the better units to try and hang in there and go for a second go if they fail. However, it's probably best to do it in one go, so try and soften it up a little first. Do not forget the grenade they can throw in the shooting phase - if you really need it dead, separate haywire independent characters from the squad to get another grenade throw at it.

The issue is we know it and so do the Imperial commanders. Assume they will move heaven and earth to prevent you from getting them into contact. Expect bubblewrap. Expect obscene amounts of firepower to be directed at them.

Therefore, we need to consider other options as well.

Of course, we can ping it to death with lances, particularly if we start moving guys around so he can't shield against them all. That does have the downside of leaving other grosser forms of firepower alive, but it does stop him shredding Grotesques and Taloi that might otherwise solve the issue.

A Talos might be able to destroy a damaged Knight, but probably at the cost of its own live. If, however, you've got a Talos with only one wound left, it might well be worth the old college try.

A deep striking unit of Heat lance scourges can, with a bit of luck, shave off a lot of hull points in a go, and with a lot of luck destroy it. Reavers and fusion pistol Harlies can also attempt to pull off the same trick, just with less weapons and more warning.

I think what it boils down to is that:

a) You'll probably need to hit it a couple of times before you can send in the close combat guys anyway
b) We do have some great close up for getting rid of it, if taken, but we are going to have to take a lot of care and clearing measures to get them there
c) In terms of raw firepower and how difficult it is to get rid of, it won't be top of your priority list. There will probably be far easier to kill and nearly as threatening units out there.

So, assuming you have the right units, you'll probably want to kill its friends, then ding it a couple of times, and then kill it up close with something vicious.

Our response to an aggressive Knight

An aggressive Knight is probably preferable. Yes, it is slightly scarier, and hiding from something that mobile is difficult.

However, if it is advancing, it should be easier to

a) Isolate it from its support and introduce it to the Wyches
b) Start surrounding it and popping darklight at whichever angle it doesn't cover with the shield

So, it is the same responses, just easier to pull off. The thing that changes is the priority. In an aggressive posture, it can possibly start herding us or wrecking 2-3 vehicles a turn. So we need to go after it hard and fast and sit it down before we start to run away from its (hopefully) less threatening friends.

Meta Change?

So far this edition has been down on heavy armour. Armour in general really. The question is - does this change that? The Imperial Knight is being followed shortly by the Treadhead's codex after all.

As a Dark Eldar player, I'd hope it does. Large expensive vehicles are very vulnerable to us. But I'm not sure. Time will tell.

Conclusion

Wellp, this has been a bit of a mess, and it may have missed a few points so all feedback is welcome. Lets talk about this lumbering monstrosity.

But, having thought what we've got through as best as I can, I'm not scared. I don't think it threatens us as much as quite a few things that cost the same amount of points. It is very vulnerable to a few things we've got, albeit at close range. The most worrying thing about it is its possible influence when together with a number of other Imperial units who can protect it.

Finally - how long before some absolute git casts Invisibility on it for giggles?
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 08:07

Means 2014 is shaping up to be a year of Walkers. Meaning I hope we get some good freaking walkers.

Still for us it means the same thing as it always does. Gun and run. Dark Lances will be something key as well as Haywire Wyches.
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 10:55

@JackKnife01 wrote:
Means 2014 is shaping up to be a year of Walkers. Meaning I hope we get some good freaking walkers.

Still for us it means the same thing as it always does. Gun and run. Dark Lances will be something key as well as Haywire Wyches.

Pft. Please.
We'll be sidelined as always, and MAYBE be given access to Eldar stuff as usual (as with the current Eldar Titan). On reflection, we probably won't get anything new past the Eldar Titan.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 13:04

You seem to have all the D weapon rules wrong... They were updated in apocalypse and this carried over into escalation and strong hold assault

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 06:08

It's cc attacks will ignore the wyches 4 up.. otherwise I agree wyches will be one of the better answers especially since it can't overwatch. Also it doesn't get an invuln in cc. I honestly don't think it will cause us too many problems, not compared to other armies but if the rumors are true we could see armies of these things such would get annoying.
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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 06:48

Massaen - I thought I had, but those were the rules I could find online in a hurry. Anyone care to correct what I missed there?

Brom - Just don't let it strike back then!
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 09:41

@wanderingblade wrote:
Massaen - I thought I had, but those were the rules I could find online in a hurry. Anyone care to correct what I missed there?

Brom - Just don't let it strike back then!

Rules for RiDiculous Weapons in 40k are that you roll To Hit as you would for a standard attack. If the attack hits, roll on the table instead of rolling To Wound or for armour penetration. No saving throws of any kind are allowed against damage from a Destroyer weapon, including special rolls such as Feel No Pain or Necron Reanimation Protocols.

The table is basically 2+ to destroy anything.

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 10:39

So with 3 attacks in CC it should kill all of 1,25wyches. While 5 wyches do app 2 HP damage/turn.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 10:46

@Vasara wrote:
So with 3 attacks in CC it should kill all of 1,25wyches. While 5 wyches do app 2 HP damage/turn.

As with most vehicles, if the Wyches actually get into close combat they stand a decent chance of killing it. The problem is that the opponent is likely to know that and vapourise them with a S9 large blast from 3 feet away What a Face 

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 11:12

Yes. They really should do that.

I really don't like thinking thing in a vacuum. But still if your army includes 4 or more squads of hwg wyches one of those squads should have a try at the knight. Especially the agressive kind of knight. The gunline knight is a waste of points imo. Same as nonagressive WK.

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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 11:29

Does Haywire only glance on a 6 against Superheavies or did that change with the latest Apocalypse update?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 11:40

AFAIK, Haywire works normally on SH.

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 11:40

@Sky Serpent wrote:
Does Haywire only glance on a 6 against Superheavies or did that change with the latest Apocalypse update?

I don't know but if it is so just tie the Monster down with some WS4 guys.

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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 15:27

The Wyches inv saves still work against Stomp attacks right? That's the thing that'd really make me worry about sticking them in combat with one of them.

One point I forgot - Superheavies make massive explosions when they blow up, right? That might make people very reluctant to have them near their own forces, which makes it even more difficult to stop suicide Wych runs...
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 16:01

@wanderingblade wrote:
The Wyches inv saves still work against Stomp attacks right?

Yeah, they're S6 AP4 other than on a 1 (no effect) or 6 (remove from play).

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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 16:30

Super Heavies are resistent to haywire and entropic weapons via Invincible Behemoth rule. Only 6 hurt em. That being said Wyches will still hold that thing for a while.

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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 16:41

@Azdrubael wrote:
Super Heavies are resistent to haywire and entropic weapons via Invincible Behemoth rule.

Entropic weapons yes, but not Haywire.

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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 22:07

I kid you not my response to the knight was to order a Revenant Titan and 2x Hornets with some of my tax returns. In truth I really wanted them before I even knew of the Knights existence and planned on ordering them, it's just a happy accident. Does anyone know the amount GW is gonna sell it for? It might factor into how likely a person is to see one appear in their area, a Guard player around here said "Money is not a factor I care about when it comes to the Knight" which means he'll have 1 if not 2 of these things.

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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 22:32

@MurDok wrote:
I kid you not my response to the knight was to order a Revenant Titan and 2x Hornets with some of my tax returns. In truth I really wanted them before I even knew of the Knights existence and planned on ordering them, it's just a happy accident.  Does anyone know the amount GW is gonna sell it for? It might factor into how likely a person is to see one appear in their area, a Guard player around here said "Money is not a factor I care about when it comes to the Knight" which means he'll have 1 if not 2 of these things.
Even with the new Knights, the Revenant remains king of the hill. A single Revenant kills a Knight a turn, two per turn if you use Guide and/or get a bit lucky. And the maximum of three Knights don't even come close to killing a Revenant in three turns. Unless you are extremely unlucky or let them get into assault.

Rumours put the Knight at $160 or €125 or £95 similar to a Lord of Skulls.
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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 18 2014, 07:09

The Revenant is the response to everything but the question "How do I keep my friends?"
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 18 2014, 08:32

@wanderingblade wrote:
The Revenant is the response to everything but the question "How do I keep my friends?"

Touche good sir lol
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 18 2014, 13:44

@wanderingblade wrote:
The Revenant is the response to everything but the question "How do I keep my friends?"
Possible contender for quote of the year cheers 

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 18 2014, 13:57

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
@wanderingblade wrote:
The Revenant is the response to everything but the question "How do I keep my friends?"
Possible contender for quote of the year cheers 

Indeed! Would be quite amusing if someone turned up with 3 Knights and they were all dead by turn 2 due to a single Revenant Smile

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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 18 2014, 18:18

^ agreed.  We don't play escalation in our meta for this very reason.  It's no fun to play.  It works like this, I have this so remove your models from the table.  The whole reason I started playing DE is the challenge we have at being an effective army.  Throwing an, "I win" model on the table speaks volume of a players ability.  The Titan is a gorgeous model, but id rather stick with, I am severely out matched but I out-thought you approach.  The ONLY thing I get frustrated with is my dice roll.  Murphy tends to make a mockery of my plans, or he at least makes it very difficult for me.  When you score 5 wounds with 3 venoms id say its time for new dice....  But I'm broke as a joke so I'm stuck with my mutinous dice for now.  Thinking of melting one in front of the others to scare em straight.

I was agreeing with the statement about keeping friends.

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PostSubject: Re: What the Imperial Knight means for us   What the Imperial Knight means for us I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 18 2014, 19:40

@doomseer11b wrote:
 The whole reason I started playing DE is the challenge we have at being an effective army.

The whole reason I started playing DE is because they are cool. It's not that I don't like a challenge, but if every game is going to be like climbing the Himalayas, it's going to get old real quick.

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