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 So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now

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Haemonculus
Hellion
Haemonculus

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PostSubject: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 11 2014, 02:39

Hey, all

I've noticed for a while now that Wyches are not really hot stuff in 6th. Overwatch and 6+ saves galore, I can understand. Most of the time I see lists with the new Dark Eldar Codex that have wyches use them as haywire sucide squads.

But what about a very Wych cult thememed army?

I mean aside from venom haywire squads. I'm talking big squads 8-10 wyches strong in raiders, maybe have 5 or 6 of those along with ravagers and a drugged up Archon? and dont forget our cool Reavers and Incubi for moral support.

Just curious to really get an in depth look at what others feel.
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Bibitybopitybacon
Wych
Bibitybopitybacon

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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 11 2014, 03:21

Thinking about running something like this for a cult myself.

Baron 105
Succubus+vblade 70
Elite:
4 Grots+raider 200
Troops:
5wyches+grenades+hekatix+venomblade+venom+cannon=140

5wyches+grenades+hekatix+venomblade+venom+cannon=140

5wyches+grenades+hekatix+venomblade+venom+cannon=140

5wyches+grenades+hekatix+venomblade+venom+cannon=140

5wyches+grenades+hekatix+venomblade+venom+cannon=140

Fast Attack:
Beastmasters3bm+5Khymera+4flocks= 115

Talos+TWLG: 105

Talos+TWLG: 105

Chronos+vortex: 100

Spiritseer 70
8 wraithBlades

They aren't big units, but the hekatrix was always the one that delt damage anyways and with the addition of plasma grenades before charging with this set up you get more grenades and another trix. Additionally the S4 explosions hurt us a lot. With this setup your eggs are spread through more baskets. Use em like wolf packs and have two or three units hit the same unit at a time.

This is kinda the direction that I see dedicated cult lists moving. Just MHO, take it or leave it.
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Mngwa
Wych
Mngwa

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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 11 2014, 13:50

Korazell had a quite successful list with only cult-units, can't remember where it was though... All I remember it had two succubi and only wyches as troops.

The ultimate list would be one with only subbuci, wyches, reavers, hellions, razorwings and venoms. Those are all that are affiliated with the cults (well, with the exception of hellions, but they are close enough!).
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doomseer11b
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 11 2014, 17:19

BARON

ELITE
2 stationary trueborn squads (3 man squads with 2 dark lances each)

TROOPS
3X wyches in venoms with haywire

2 kabalite warrior squads in venoms with a blaster

10 man hellion squad

FAST ATTACK
Reavers- 9 man caltrops

beast pack- 5 beastmasters, 25 khymera

HEAVY
Voidraven bomber (i know the razorwing is wych-ish, is the voidraven?  i havent checked on this)
ravagerX2


still fluffy, yet still competitive.  As far as actually using wyches?  I have only one use for them, haywire then die.  Kabal is in there, cuz to my understanding kabal is always in raids no matter what.

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Barking Agatha
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 11 2014, 18:08

Someone won an important tournament a few months ago with an army that was all wyches on venoms and (I think) Ravagers and Razorwings. Arguably it's really the venoms, ravager, and razorwings doing most of the heavy lifting, with the wyches only doing the mopping up, haywiring stubborn vehicles and claiming objectives.

It doesn't seem very diverse or very fun -- but it did win the tournament!

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Expletive Deleted
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 12 2014, 02:07

I actually decided to start a cult themed army for an escalation league I entered. So far I've had a lot of success, until I met Tau. I find overwatch survivable in most cases but not against Tau. I don't even feel anymore that Kabalites are superior troop choices, they're just... easier. A wych squad can be devastating and surprisingly resilient, if they get into melee combat. I've sweeping advanced a unit against every army I played that isn't space marines (and tau, they just really ruined me to overstate the fact).

I think the problem with wyches is they're hard to use in what people already consider a hard to use army. I do like that initiative 6 though.

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Devilogical
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Devilogical

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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 11:36

I runnin wych cult!
Too bad it`s rare now.
Usualy have 1-2 succubus, 3-5 wyches squads, full FA slot and some support, such as Cronos or jetfither.
And I AM quite good with this stuff, ya now...

P.S. not long time ago made up my Baron (almost like in Codex  Razz ), Bloodbrides (from new Elf withes) and Lelith. SO wych cults are basicaly great!
P.P.S Glory to Hekati!

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Succubus Ariel the Vengefull of the Wych cult Blade Denied to her sister, archon Elieae after the conquering Low Commoragh Dark spire.
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Haemonculus
Hellion
Haemonculus

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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 23:35

Damn.. I use the old book and have been thinking of using small, elite squads of wyches in raiders with two blasters and MAYBE haywire grenades.

But damn.. I thought Bigger squads of Wyches would be in more use now in 6th BECAUSE of overwatch. I remember everyone only taking 7-8 strong squads as affective kill-ready squads during 5th and some people upping it to 10 wyches in 6th.
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Devilogical
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Devilogical

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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 14 2014, 13:38

@Haemonculus wrote:
Damn.. I use the old book and have been thinking of using small, elite squads of wyches in raiders with two blasters and MAYBE haywire grenades.

I thought Bigger squads of Wyches would be in more use now in 6th BECAUSE of overwatch.

Oh, please. Stop it already. Overwatch isn`t THAT scary. Only flamers and tau squads can be dangerous. Or REALY big enemy squads (like 30 imperial guards   Evil or Very Mad ). Others is just like pew-pew.

I run 95% close combat army, and doin great.
But once my scourge kill veneraleblefjesfweleel (damn it) dreadnout on overwatch. 6 on hit with haywayre blaster. 6 on armor pen. 6 on result. Ka-BOOM!  Twisted Evil 

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`We faced a Dysjunction... we were betrayed, destroyed, ashamed, hunted... Now look who is been risen from the ashes...`

Succubus Ariel the Vengefull of the Wych cult Blade Denied to her sister, archon Elieae after the conquering Low Commoragh Dark spire.
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Barking Agatha
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 06:36

@Devilogical wrote:

Oh, please. Stop it already. Overwatch isn`t THAT scary. Only flamers and tau squads can be dangerous.

Really? Even without a flamer, if a squad of wyches charges 10 space meringues, they will overwatch with 20 bolter shots, hitting on 6s. Every 6 rolled is practically a dead wych.

At this point, maths crunchers will often say that 'statistically, that's only 3.33 hits'. Well, no. Statistically, it's actually 3.33 +/- 1.66 hits, because there is such a thing as Standard Deviation. Since there is no such thing as a dice roll of 1.6, that means that you should expect anywhere between 2 hits (if you're really lucky) and 5 hits (if your opponent is). It's as likely to be 4 hits as it is to be 3.

The chances that any one wych will survive a hit are 0.33 (the mean) +/- 0.47 (the standard deviation). Since there is no such thing as a dice roll of '0', the standard deviation is not on the wych's side.

So, if a squad of wyches charges 10 space meringues, how many will die to Overwatch? 2.22 +/- 5.8 wyches. That means anywhere from: they might all survive (if you're lucky), or 8 wyches dead (if you're unlucky). Most often it will be between 1 and 4. This will happen every time, unless your opponent gets a particularly unlucky roll.

That isn't scary? Of course it is. That is why no one ever charges 10 space meringues with wyches any more. Smile

Edit: For comparison, if genestealers charge the same space meringues, you get 1.66 +/- 2.0 dead genestealers; that is, between 1 and 4, usually 2 or 3.

If other space meringues charge the same space meringues, you get 0.027 +/- 0.97 dead space meringues; that is, maybe one, usually none!

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Last edited by Barking Agatha on Sun Feb 16 2014, 09:34; edited 2 times in total
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ligolski
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 06:45

I run wyches as AT...that's it. I will only use them to soak overwatch more my more hard hitting units if I'm not gunning for vehicles. Furthermore I generally run them now in squads of 5.

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Wych
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 15:38

You charge them through cover with a phantasm grenade launcher. Netting them a 4 to 5 up save. Charging through cover isn't too hard when you're packing assault grenades and fleet. Furthermore if you happened to roll an extra pain token for your combat drugs its even less scary. It's not that hard to accomplish. Why would you do this above just shooting them with kabalites? It locks a unit in combat. That's firing that isn't going to be directed at the rest of your army, and a unit you own that can't be hurt by outside forces unless charged by another unit.

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Void Stalker
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 18:15

It was me that won Best Dark Eldar General at the Throne of Skulls in November and May last year with an all Cult list.

I am going again in March this year.

My list is:

Succubus
Venom Blade
Blast Pistol
Haywire Grenades

4 Blood Brides
Haywire Grenades
Venom
Extra Splinter Cannon
Night Shields

x5 Units of 5 Wyches
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Venom Blade
Venom
Extra Splinter Cannon
Night Shields

x3 Razorwing Jetfighters
Splinter Cannon
Night Shields
Flicker Fields

1500pts on the button.

It's not an army for the faint hearted (is any Dark Eldar force?!) but when used correctly it is extremely effective.

Feel free to see my previous posts for tournament reports.

Cheers,

Lawrence
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Barking Agatha
Wych
Barking Agatha

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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 19:19

@Void Stalker wrote:
It was me that won Best Dark Eldar General at the Throne of Skulls in November and May last year with an all Cult list.

Hi. Yes, sorry that I forgot that. My memory isn't what it used to be.

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
You charge them through cover with a phantasm grenade launcher. Netting them a 4 to 5 up save.

 Rolling Eyes This... again. Yes, it's true. The plan goes something like this:

1. Equip every squad of wyches with a phantom grenade launcher.

2. Move them into cover somewhere that your opponent will not shoot at them.

3. Politely ask your opponent to move the unit that you want to charge to within 8" of your wyches, instead of shooting them from a distance like a sensible person.

4. Verify that Venus is entering the house of Aquarius. Look out the window and make sure that there isn't a red sky, but that a flock of starlings is flying around in a circle. Find a skinny old man with only one eye and ask him three questions, and if you ask him on a Monday, he will say 'yeeees.'

5. ?

6. Profit

Under those circumstances, yeah, sure. Go, wyches, woo.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 20:20

Quote :
Even without a flamer, if a squad of wyches charges 10 space meringues
We should really stop doing those comparisons. First of all - your not gonna be charging 10 marines as an example scanario. 10 tactical marines are a really rare unit now. They are taken, but are going to combat squads almost always.

Even if it would you'd fire 9 splinter shots and throw nade. Thats already 1-2 marines gone. Before you ask - would it not hurt my charge chance, i will mention focus fire rule, which is just for this situations.

Second - 10 marines will probably win against a 10 Wych Squad, or this fight will be stupidly ineffective, overwatch or not. You probably will not score with that squad of Wyches. Good fight is 10 against 5-6.

And overwatch from 5 isnt scary.

Conclusion is - you dont have to fear overwatch from targets you want to assault, and from targets you should fear overwatch - well you should'nt really be charging them. Tau is exception from rule, but everyone else i think qualify.  

So its more a question of - do i really have to assault that guardsmen blob? Do i really have to assault 10 strong Grey Hunters? In most of the cases the answer will be no, and it will have little to do with overwatch.

Im talking Wyches here. They are kinda crappy at killing troops anyway, its not their job.
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Expletive Deleted
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 23:12

Thank you Agatha I did not realize there were so many steps to disembarking into terrain from my fast assault skimmer. I will be sure to overcomplicate this in the future.

In the future I'll ask my oppenent to move into range of my kabalites and not fire at them in the process. Politely ask them not to fire at my boats with anything higher than strength 4 or lower than AP 2. And not shoot at any of my units at all, Because god forbid I take control of the game with strategy using the tools available to me. I will do as you say and let them direct the whole game.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 00:59

@Azdrubael wrote:

We should really stop doing those comparisons. First of all - your not gonna be charging 10 marines as an example scanario.

That's not what I've seen; but fine, let's say 5 space meringues instead. That's 10 Overwatch shots, equals 10 x 2/3 x 1/2 =  0.83 +/- 0.9, that is, 1 or 2 casualties on the charge, guaranteed. Not counting a flamer.

@Azdrubael wrote:

Even if it would you'd fire 9 splinter shots and throw nade. Thats already 1-2 marines gone.


Is it? Let's say it's 10 wyches. I get 9 x 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 1.0 +/- 0.94. The chances of killing a single meringue with a plasma grenade are about 0.22 +/- 0.01. That's a total of about 1 meringue gone, 2 if you're lucky!

@Azdrubael wrote:

And overwatch from 5 isnt scary.


If you say so.

@Azdrubael wrote:

So its more a question of - do i really have to assault that guardsmen blob? Do i really have to assault 10 strong Grey Hunters? In most of the cases the answer will be no, and it will have little to do with overwatch.


Which raises the question of, what exactly can they fight against then? It seems to be a very limited list.

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Thank you Agatha I did not realize there were so many steps to disembarking into terrain from my fast assault skimmer.


Would that be the same fast assault skimmer that has to move exactly like a regular tank if you intend to disembark? I'm sorry if I offended you, E.D., it's just that I've had this discussion so. many. times...

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Wych
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 03:04

You did not offend. It's just not as impossible as it seems. To discuss it is one thing to do it is another. I will admit, that there are far more forgiving troop choices. However one thing that separates wyches from other units, is they tie a unit up. I've fired rounds of venom shots into a threatening target and done nothing. Every time I throw wyches as something if it doesn't eliminate the target it generally keeps it tied up for a turn or two. And that can save vehicles and flyers.

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Evil Space Elves
Haemonculus Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 04:23

@Void Stalker wrote:
It was me that won Best Dark Eldar General at the Throne of Skulls in November and May last year with an all Cult list.

That's a pretty brutal list if used correctly, though not for the faint of heart to play certainly. I might be helpful for the thread to fill us in on what match ups you had, where you dominated/struggled/had blind luck. (That, and I want to steal a lot of ideas!  Razz )

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 05:25

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
You did not offend. It's just not as impossible as it seems.

Who said it was impossible? There's a huge middle ground between 'impossible' and 'working fine'.

It just vexes me when people go, 'Meh, Overwatch is no big deal!' Sure, it's no big deal if you're T4 and have 3+ armour. For T3 girls in yoga suits though, it most certainly is a big deal. Can it be mitigated through tactics, luck, cover, and phantom grenade launchers? Sure, but that is hardly the same thing as 'no big deal'!

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commandersasha
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 09:39

I agree with Barking Agatha here, both mathematically, and in game experience, as a Tyranid player who loves Genestealers, and a DE player who loves girls in yoga suits! I find many a charge has been weakened below critical mass by Overwatch.

The 10 Marine squad is relevant: maybe 10 C:SM tacticals aren't the most common unit, but a troop squad firing 20 overwatch shots at S4 [u]is[/] common, whether they are Storm Bolters, Devourers, Shootas or whatever.

Agatha, you've partially filled a gap in my weak knowledge of probability: how do you calculate Standard Deviation in examples like the above?
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 11:09

20 S4 shots overwatch with out twinlink makes 2,2 wounds. With twinlinked the number is 4. If the chargers are in terrain thats 1,5 (2,7) dead. Flamer kills 2 on average.

Those numbers tell that you should not charge those marines with Wyches. Their specialty lies elsewhere.

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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 16:30

The problem with mathhammer, even though I swear by it religiously, is you can't account for standard deviation, or in other words, luck. Generally I lose 0-3 wyches to overwatch and that's without cover or feel no pain. Sure, i've had a squad completely taken out (only by tau). I've also fired 13 splinter cannons and some twinlinked splinter rifles (78+ poison shots) at one unit of 5 devastators and didn't manage to kill one. I quit that game on turn two. We all know splinter cannons are awesome weapons, But even they have the potential for failure. Wyches do something better than any unit we have, and that's tie units up, because of their invulnerable save. I had one opponent feel rage and frustration because his terminators were locked in combat with a squad of 5 wyches for 3 turns. Sure they lost the combat, but my 60 point squad kept his 200 point squad from doing any real harm. Sure I made some lucky rolls, but that's the nature of the game.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 17:30

@commandersasha wrote:

Agatha, you've partially filled a gap in my weak knowledge of probability: how do you calculate Standard Deviation in examples like the above?

Confession: I had help. My sister is a scientist and knows statistics and probability, for science. I used a 'binomial distribution', which I'm pretty sure is about right. The standard deviation is:

Square Root of [n x p x q], where n=the number of Overwatch shots, p=the chances of killing a wych with one shot, and q=the chances of not killing a wych with one shot.

Then it gets more complicated, because you can't actually get dice rolls of '0' or '2.35', for example. If you graph it out, about 1/4 of the wyches that would survive being shot at would need some dice to come up zeroes. The maths involved are beyond me, but what it means is that the Standard Deviation skews more toward killing wyches than toward saving them.

If you charge with wyches 100 times, the number of times that you will lose 2 or 3 wyches will be somewhat higher than any other result; but when you're in the middle of a game, and you charge with wyches, the probable result is anywhere between 2 and 6. Genestealers have it better, because Toughness 4 makes a huge difference to the spread -- although there's still a good chance of losing too many to overwatch and having the charge ruined.

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
The problem with mathhammer, even though I swear by it religiously, is you can't account for standard deviation, or in other words, luck.

I'm pretty sure that the whole point of maths is to account for precisely that! It isn't telling us that you can't be lucky and have it turn out well. It's telling us that luck is required for it to go well.

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PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 17 2014, 23:36

Well, I meant account more in terms of list building more so than a statistical curve. Otherwise no one would use dark light weapons for AT with haywire available. I may fire 6 venoms at 5 marines and kill zero, on paper it should have worked, but no matter how much theory I put into, I can't account for really crappy rolls. This is why when I do charge I accept 0-3 wyches will die before I declare it when choosing what to charge. The same way I used to account for losing 45% of my kabalites in a boat explosion. Sometimes they'd all live, i've had eight die in a blast. At the end of the day you don't know which end of the spectrum the dice are going to deviate. Target selection is all you're left with, and if you charge 10 marines with 5-10 wyches to kill them you should go back to studying more basic math like greater than and less than, instead of probability.

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So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now Empty
PostSubject: Re: So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now   So.. Wych Cults are kinda rare now I_icon_minitime

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