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 Kabalites vs Everything Else

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lcfr
Sybarite
lcfr

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PostSubject: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09 2014, 00:47

So I've been pretty let down with my Kabalite Wariors...

My Wracks are great: they get up in the enemy's face, burn 'em to sludge, and hack up what's left. My Kabalites, though....they kinda just waffle around. They're not cut out for assault, and they can't get too close to enemies because open ground = death, and because even in cover they still don't seem to put too much pain on other units. I run units of 5 with a Blaster, and I'm often not even close enough to put out Blaster damage. Games that I win they don't tend to contribute much to, and games that I lose make me rather miserable because it's so many points worth of troops that just don't really contribute.

I'm thinking of just jumping ship to Wyches with HWG...at least they can tie down a unit and/or glance tanks to death.

Where am I going wrong? I'll typically have my Kabalites start the game in their Venoms and disembark on turn 2 into cover.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09 2014, 01:06

It's hard to say where you're 'going wrong' and, in addition, it's hard to say if you have unfair expectations or not.

Versus Mech, or TEQ, there is really no way that Wracks should outperform Warriors w. Blaster when it comes to killing stuff (barring a very lucky Liquifier roll for TEQ). Also, there are a number of targets (FMCs, Riptides, Wraithknights...wraith anything, really, anything with 2+ wounds, like Nobz or Centurions, ect. ect.) that Warriors really should, again, perform markedly better than Wracks at.

Now, there are some things they are worse at, and that is general mobs. So a pile of Orks or IG - I'd rather have the Wracks to deal with.

Also, if your complaint is that Warriors die too easily...um...I *really* don't think Wyches will be your cup of tea. Wracks are our most survivable Troop, then probably Hellions, then Warriors, and then Wyches. It's not even close, Wyches are the gawd queens of fragile Troops. So if your issue is horrid death...be careful about planning to solve your woes with Wyches.

Warriors should never assault anything ever. If you have the chance to assault...double tap with your rifles instead.

I can't speak for much more than that considering how wide open the question is. I will admit that, unlike many, I am not really a fan of disembarking my Warriors. Yeah, yeah, explosions are scary, boo-hoo. But, frankly, I cut my teeth on DE in 3rd and 4th, I still feel pretty safe from those crashes right now (and they don't always explode - lots of people bolter glance them to death) and I think the mobility is well worth the price paid in risk of explosion.

I routinely have my Warriors killing everything from Daemon Princes, to Mephiston, to Termie squads, to Assault Bikes, not to mention punching holes in Land Raiders and Chimeras and Wave Serpents. You pay 60 points for 5 guys w. Blaster - they're pretty darn good for 60 points, there are not a lot of other units that cost remotely that much that are as good versus such a wide range of targets. That said, recognize that it is a 60 point unit, and don't expect more from it than it can give (which is, usually, about 2 or so wounds on any given target, or 1 hull point stripped) if you keep that idea in mind you may be able to play them a bit smarter? I dunno. Hope some of that helps.

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09 2014, 01:08

KW's work best in units of 10 in Raiders, with just a Splintercannon. Splinter-racks, while a lot of folks consider them a waste of points, have served me brilliantly for a long time. I have learnt to be patient with them, only bringing them forward when I can use them in concert with other units for total destruction. If they do end up on foot, I've found the splintercannon gives them purpose while they creep towards an objective.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09 2014, 01:27

@Timatron wrote:
KW's work best in units of 10 in Raiders, with just a Splintercannon.
That will, of course, depend on your definition of 'best'.

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09 2014, 01:58

Well, obviously I meant best for me, in terms of them contributing to the game. I have never got much use from small squads as they tend to die before they get anywhere! But yeah, 2 squads of 10 with SC in a SR,NS Raider is the core of every list I write, although I do tend to also have Wracks (as troops) and Wyches in Venoms to back them up. I try to have as many troops units as I can.
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09 2014, 02:11

I suppose my issue is I'm a bit skittish about moving them too close to units whose firepower will just totally outweigh theirs...that said, it's rare that when given a chance my opponents would opt to murder 5 Kabalites over, say, a Venom.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09 2014, 03:21

What's the point of having a unit if you don't use it for what it's there for? Kabalites shoot and score - they should try to do one or both every turn, or else they aren't helping your list.

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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09 2014, 04:12

I always find myself agreeing with Thor. I actually had to ween myself off of kabalites, because I find them to be our most useful troop choice. At least in versatility. Though I'm really coming around to wyches. Despite everyone's criticism. I ran my gunships like Timatron. My list had 3 gunboats with splinter racks a splinter cannon and blasters, think I gave the raiders night shields too. 195 point unit if I recall. I NEVER disembarked. Ride or die! With three you don't care if you lose one, or even two. But opponents rarely saw them as a big threat. That setup is why I moved onto wyches. I got bored rolling so many dice. But they were definitely effective. Eight twin linked rapid-fire splinter shots, 1 dark light shot, and then 4-6 more shots? I killed a wrathknight first turn with that crap. Dude was mad. Then his wave serpents proceeded to steam roll me, but hey, just saying, they're a great unit.

Edit: And same as Thor said, you can't be skittish with dark eldar. If you hesitate you die. That doesn't mean play recklessly, but you really can't hold back.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09 2014, 06:00

I think the one thing you are doing is disembarking. Like Thor said, live with the explosion. It doesn't happen all the time and take the chance. Remember however the Venom dies, you should get cover from it.

I used to run my Warriors in Venoms with Blasters. But I found myself over reaching and trying to get that 1 Blaster in range of a tank or to get the AP 2 somewhere. Now, I just go straight naked Warriors. It allows them to rely only on killing Infantry and I don't have to over reach with them. I move 6'' and shoot 5-10 shots out the top at BS. Move 12'' and shoot 5-10 Snap Shots. It has worked wonders for me.
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 09 2014, 20:44

Yeah, I feel the same about Blasters. I haven't actually been running any at all. I gave up on Blasterborn after one too many times getting caught out in the open with them; just felt at that time that the Venom would be better used defensively with some Wracks in, or offensively with some cheap and cheerful Wyches. Something about a unit where the guns cost more than the guys themselves didn't sit right with me! Especially when they are so 'all or nothing' that I felt I had no choice but to press on up the 'field with them, as they don't offer the fall-back option of lurking to score an objective later. I've actually been running my 1650 list with no elites at all, preferring to max-out on scoring units.
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Denizen in the Dark
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 10 2014, 00:03

I agree..finding Blasters to be ok but not a must have un large numbers.

I have switched to small wyche units with or without haywire,these I put in venoms and keep back shooting the twin splinter cannons.

Then push up when needed.

Kabalites are still a must have unit,I recently used them in a 20 man unit w/2 SC coming out of a Webway porta(trying to make it work)l..luckly they didn't come on til 4th turn.

Wracks are ok..they survive a little better against exploding vehicles due to the feel no pain.

As u all know Wracks should only be taken as a troop choice with a Haemie.

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eris
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 11 2014, 14:34

I take groups of 3 wracks just to access the cheap transports. I used to run warriors with a blaster, but much like the OP found them to not be pulling their weight. A lot of DE power is in our vehicles, both in terms of guns and in survivability and mobility, so maximising on those has done well for me.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 11 2014, 16:18

@lcfr wrote:


Where am I going wrong? I'll typically have my Kabalites start the game in their Venoms and disembark on turn 2 into cover.

Right there is where you are going wrong.
Never deploy the warriors until needed to claim an objective. They are best when in venoms, moving 6" and shooting at anything that moves!
Think of a venom as a mobile bunker used to deploy scoring troops into position that can shoot... a lot...

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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 16:49

tbh mate, if you're expecting 5 man warrior teams to do much then you're a bit of an optimist. a unit of that size is totally about jumping onto an objective late-game and going to ground every time they get shot.

if you want a warrior squad to do something other than that, then you need a squad of 10 in a raider with splinter racks, nightshields and a splinter cannon.. they're PDG (pretty damn good) at short range and the re-rolls help massively.
switch the gun on the front of the raide to a dissie if you're expecting 2+ saves
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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 18:43

I disagree about the blaster in a squad. When I write my lists I try and balance out anti-tank to anti-infantry. I run 2X3 man units of trueborn with lances, 2-3 ravagers and 5 units of kabalite warriors in venoms with blasters. Night shields on the venoms as well. I tell my opponent the ranges of each weapon and they completely focus on the 36" range units. They completely ignore my piddly little warriors in my venom unitl turn 2 when they destroyed 2 land raiders. Granted it takes all of my shooting from them to do it, but it works. To me, its not necessarily if they do anything all the time, its just having that much anti whatever in your unit. Most of the time when i say, 9 lances in my heavy, 5 in my troops, and 4 in my elite, coupled with 5-7 venoms, 2 wrack units, a grot unit, and reavers with caltrops, my opponent is already defeated before we even start.


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eris
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites vs Everything Else   Kabalites vs Everything Else I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 18:53

@doomseer11b wrote:
They completely ignore my piddly little warriors in my venom unitl turn 2 when they destroyed 2 land raiders.

I'm not going to btoher pointing out how wildly the odds are stacked against that happening on anything but a once in a lifetime basis.
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