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SCP Yeeman
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MFive
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PostSubject: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 06 2014, 02:08

has anyone caught that it is shrouded to all models within 6"? because shrouded stacks with itself 3 gaunts in range of one gives them all cover based terminator armor.

am i crazy or is this a legit thing?
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 06 2014, 03:05

Shrouded does not stack with itself. Stacks with Stealth, but not with itself.

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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 06 2014, 03:06

Wait... it stacks with itself? If that's the case then shadowsun with stealth suits should have a 2+ cover in the open... That sounds sketchy to me...
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 06 2014, 03:32

@Laughingcarp wrote:
Shrouded does not stack with itself. Stacks with Stealth, but not with itself.

Big Rule Book, p.g. 41 wrote:
Cover save bonuses from Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative(to a maximum of a 2+ cover save)
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 06 2014, 04:24

The sentence from the big book is explaining that the bonuses from Stealth and Shrouded are cumulative, not that they are cumulative with themselves. If that was the case, putting Baron in any unit would give the whole unit a +2 standing cover save as he gives the unit stealth, implying that each model in the unit would get it.
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 06 2014, 04:28

i guess this is another great rule by GW as my area plays it as shrouded stacks with shrouded and stealth stacks with stealth, and every other combination, iirc their has been no FAQ on this eather
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 06 2014, 04:31

There is no need for an FAQ. Your area is simply playing it wrong. You can't benefit double time from a USR. If I have a squad that has Furious Charge and then attach an IC who grants FC to the squad do they get +2 strength? Do they gain "Even more Furious Charge" USR? No. Stealth and Shrouded do not stack.

The quote you have from the BRB explicitly states this as truth.
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 06 2014, 04:40

the start of the special rules section ( in the mini rule book it is page 32) states " Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once."
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 06 2014, 05:32

our logic for ignoring that particular rule was in my quoted area(don't feel like re-posting), though i don't think we really read it very well, we where busy oogling over all of the new rules and the changes to the game mechanics, our area is very small(3-4 guys) so we do tend to play things differently then most, this was a rule that i had forgot about it seems Rolling Eyes 
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 06 2014, 22:32

I think the magic word we are all looking for is confers, the Barron confers shrouded to the unit. My understanding and my meta (which covers more 90 miles) plays with the "all cover stacks", because the rule book is very clear on what the rules are and what the rules do not allow. If independent Character "A" has Shrouded and Independant Character "B" has shrouded then the unit they join will have a 3+ standing cover save.

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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 06 2014, 23:38

@MurDok wrote:
the rule book is very clear on what the rules are and what the rules do not allow. If independent Character "A" has Shrouded and Independant Character "B" has shrouded then the unit they join will have a 3+ standing cover save.

The rulebook is indeed very clear but, as has been pointed out above, your understanding is incorrect. They would have a 5+ cover save in the open as Shrouded does not stack with itself.

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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 04:32

@Murdok i got house rules mixed up because we had been using them for so long, and had thought that they stack with them selves. RAW, and RAI they don't except in our respective areas(from my undersigning of your post we play it the same in this regard)

you are correct in your understanding, that they all have stealth/shrouded from several sources, they only benefit from one each however as DrakeHarkonnen has kindly pointed out to me.

for me(and you potently) that adds a whole new dimension to the venomethroups, and indeed the whole nids codex, but for the rest of the world they are not quite that good(though shrouded is much better then stealth)
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 04:45

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@MurDok wrote:
the rule book is very clear on what the rules are and what the rules do not allow. If independent Character "A" has Shrouded and Independant Character "B" has shrouded then the unit they join will have a 3+ standing cover save.

The rulebook is indeed very clear but, as has been pointed out above, your understanding is incorrect. They would have a 5+ cover save in the open as Shrouded does not stack with itself.

So by that logic a unit with shrouded is easier to hit at long range then short range in Night Fighting.  As a reminder units that are 12" ~ 24" away gain the stealth special rule where as a unit that is 24" ~ 36" away gain the shrouded special rule.  Using your logic, the unit that is 12" ~ 24" away gets a 3+ cover save where as if that same unit is 24" ~ 36" away only get a 4+ cover save.... How exactly does that make sense?  In either case this boils down to once again Rules as Intended and Rules as Written.

Also on a side note, to finish what the whole rule says on pg. 32 of the BRB:

"Unless specially stated, a model cannot gain the benefits of a special rule more than once. However the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative.

4a. Please refrain from double posting. You may "bump" a post every 48hrs if you feel you are not getting responses. Double posts in project logs are acceptable. /Your friendly mod SS
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 05:25

@MurDok wrote:
So by that logic a unit with shrouded is easier to hit at long range then short range in Night Fighting.  As a reminder units that are 12" ~ 24" away gain the stealth special rule where as a unit that is 24" ~ 36" away gain the shrouded special rule.  Using your logic, the unit that is 12" ~ 24" away gets a 3+ cover save where as if that same unit is 24" ~ 36" away only get a 4+ cover save.... How exactly does that make sense?  In either case this boils down to once again Rules as Intended and Rules as Written.

non sequitur;explain or define further

@MurDok wrote:
"Unless specially stated, a model cannot gain the benefits of a special rule more than once. However the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative.

you have quoted the counts point, you can gain the benefit of multiple special rules, but not more then once from each respectively, example you can have stealth, and shrouded, and be 14" away from enemy unit during night fighting(to gain stealth) but remain at a 4+ because shrouded gives 5+ in open and stealth gives +1 to that, the end result being a 4+. the save is not a 3+ because you can only use stealth once
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 05:51

Last thing I'm gonna post tonight..

Cumulative:
increasing or becoming better or worse over time through a series of additions.

Also take note that Stealth and Shrouded have separate entries in the book and both say that " Cover save bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative". This part is what the "Unless specially stated" quote of the rule on pg. 32 is referring to, both Stealth and Shrouded specially state that the saves/special rule are cumulative.

Think my argument is invalid then I point out that the BRB also states that "no single dice can be re-rolled more than once" but we all know that to be a lie. Classic Eldar "Fortune" (re-roll all fails) versus Misfortune (re-roll all successes), as codex(s) supersedes the brb.

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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 06:57

Yes multiple special rules are cumulative. Shrouded + Shrouded are not multiple special rules but the same rule (Multiple means more than one). Yes cover saves are cumulative, but the same USRs are not as you stated in your quote. You can receive Stealth + Shrouded (Multiple USRs) but not Stealth + Stealth (Not multiple USRS but the same) or Shrouded + Shrouded (Again, not multiple USRs but the same). Your quotes prove you wrong.

And to your point of Fortune and Misfortune. 2 simple solutions to your "valid" argument. Fortune allows rerolls of failed saves and Misfortune allows rerolls of successful saves, just to let everyone know.

Option 1: Do not re-roll anything as they cancel each other out. If you re-roll the fails, you also have to re-roll the successes. Which brings us to...

Option 2: Roll all your saves. Without looking at them (because it doesn't matter), pick them all back up and roll them again. Whatever the result of the 2nd roll is, is the result of Fortune + Misfortune.

Again, your argument fails. You cannot re-roll a re-roll. Fortune and Misfortune does not supercede this. It is simple logic.

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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 07:29

Must confess I was somewhat confused when I read the new posts on this thread as MurDok has quoted pretty much every rule that I would have quoted to support my position, thinking they support his.  Question 

Stealth and Shrouded stack. Stealth and Stealth do not. Shrouded and Shrouded do not. All very clearly stated in the rulebook along with the fact that you cannot benefit from the same USR twice but can benefit from multiple different special rules (note that MurDok missed that word out of his rules quote).

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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 13:42

Yup this makes total sense to me......  Rolling Eyes 

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@SCP Yeeman wrote:
Yes multiple special rules are cumulative.  Shrouded + Shrouded are not multiple special rules but the same rule (Multiple means more than one).  Yes cover saves are cumulative, but the same USRs are not as you stated in your quote.  You can receive Stealth + Shrouded (Multiple USRs) but not Stealth + Stealth (Not multiple USRS but the same) or Shrouded + Shrouded (Again, not multiple USRs but the same).  Your quotes prove you wrong.

And to your point of Fortune and Misfortune.  2 simple solutions to your "valid" argument.  Fortune allows rerolls of failed saves and Misfortune allows rerolls of successful saves, just to let everyone know.

Option 1:  Do not re-roll anything as they cancel each other out.  If you re-roll the fails, you also have to re-roll the successes.  Which brings us to...

Option 2:  Roll all your saves.  Without looking at them (because it doesn't matter), pick them all back up and roll them again.  Whatever the result of the 2nd roll is, is the result of Fortune + Misfortune.  

Again, your argument fails.  You cannot re-roll a re-roll.  Fortune and Misfortune does not supercede this.  It is simple logic.


you contradicted yourself yeeman, with your option 2 as you've just re-rolled a re-roll.... you stated in your last sentence "you cannot re-roll a re-roll".

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 13:58

@MurDok wrote:
@SCP Yeeman wrote:
Yes multiple special rules are cumulative.  Shrouded + Shrouded are not multiple special rules but the same rule (Multiple means more than one).  Yes cover saves are cumulative, but the same USRs are not as you stated in your quote.  You can receive Stealth + Shrouded (Multiple USRs) but not Stealth + Stealth (Not multiple USRS but the same) or Shrouded + Shrouded (Again, not multiple USRs but the same).  Your quotes prove you wrong.

And to your point of Fortune and Misfortune.  2 simple solutions to your "valid" argument.  Fortune allows rerolls of failed saves and Misfortune allows rerolls of successful saves, just to let everyone know.

Option 1:  Do not re-roll anything as they cancel each other out.  If you re-roll the fails, you also have to re-roll the successes.  Which brings us to...

Option 2:  Roll all your saves.  Without looking at them (because it doesn't matter), pick them all back up and roll them again.  Whatever the result of the 2nd roll is, is the result of Fortune + Misfortune.  

Again, your argument fails.  You cannot re-roll a re-roll.  Fortune and Misfortune does not supercede this.  It is simple logic.


you contradicted yourself yeeman, with your option 2 as you've just re-rolled a re-roll.... you stated in your last sentence "you cannot re-roll a re-roll".

No, neither option involves re-rolling a dice that has already been re-rolled. Option 1 is the common sense version, and indeed the one that previously appeared in the main rulebook FAQ for 5e. Option 2 involves re-rolling every dice but each dice is still only re-rolled once. Either is valid and neither breaks any rules.

As for the Night Fight situation, your example is incorrect as the Baron gives Stealth, not Shrouded. As such, at 12-24" range he still only has a 6+ cover save but at 24-36" that is increased to 4+. That being said, your example would indeed apply if you had a unit that grants Shrouded, such as the Venomthrope or an Eldar Warlock with Conceal. Yes it is indeed a little strange but hardly game breaking. We all know that GW does very little in the way of playtesting and that strange situations crop up. That does not alter the very clear rules in this case. Stealth and Shrouded stack with each other but not with themselves.

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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 15:29

What's the problem with all this stacking? There is no stacking.

Shrouded is a special rule. It doesn't matter how or in what way you get it. If one model out of thirty has the Shrouded special rule, the entire unit has the Shrouded special rule. If twenty models out of thirty have the Shrouded special rule, the entire unit has the Shrouded special rule.

The same goes with Stealth.

As was said previously, you can't have a "super" Shrouded or a "super" Furious Charge.

The stacking part of Stealth and Shrouded is to clarify that Shrouded does not replace Stealth, even though it "seems" Shrouded is just a superior version of Stealth.

For reference:
Rulebook page 32 "Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."

Rulebook page 41 and 42, "Cover save bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative (to a maximum of a 2+ cover save)."

Note that it does not say Shrouded and Stealth are cumulative, just that the cover save bonuses they provide are.
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 18:03

I am confused in my option 2 what is being re-rolled besides ALL of the dice? Not a single dice is rolled more than once, in fact ALL of the dice are re-rolled and you must live with the result.

As for your example, yes with Nightfighting it is hard to discern why your cover save would be worse, when you have shrouded already but are further away than 24''. Bad rules writing and should say if you already have Shrouding, you gain Stealth or something like that. It is a bad write, but like Count said, hardly game breaking.
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 18:23

I really believe the rule on pg. 32 3rd paragraph is in reference to rules like Furious Charge. If Shrouded wasn't cumulative (stackable) with it's self then it would say "Cover saves bonuses from Stealth special rule are cumulative" but it says "Cover saves bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative" meeting the requirements given on pg 32. that says "UNLESS SPECIFICALLY STATED, a model cannot gain the benefits of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative". If they was the case too that it was a misprint GW would have amended the section in an Errata, also if the rules are viewed this way then the whole night fight thing does make sense and so does Tau Stealth suits.... think of what they are called Stealth Suits, and if a walking 2+ cover save seems sketchy then you need to talk to all the Spess Merheen players out there that use Terminators.

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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 18:48

I can't break it down any more simple for you. Obviously you are not getting it, even with the quotes from the BRB that state you are wrong. You are the only one that is saying this is the case, I guess everyone else is wrong then.

I am done with this thread because you obviously are not reading the quotes you are writing. They printed the rules clearly, you simply cannot let it go. This thread will keep going in circles as you cannot accept the fact that you are wrong in this case.
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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 21:21

@MurDok wrote:
If Shrouded wasn't cumulative (stackable) with it's self then it would say "Cover saves bonuses from Stealth special rule are cumulative" but it says "Cover saves bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative"

This is genuinely baffling me now. You keep on making statements that support my position whilst claiming they support yours. Why indeed would it state that cover bonuses from stealth and shrouded are cumulative if they in fact mean that they stack with themselves? Answer - because they don't! It means exactly what it says. The bonus from stealth and the bonus from shrouded are cumulative. I honestly cannot think of any clearer way to get this across. The rules do not say that stealth/shrouded is stackable from multiple sources. That is you, and only you, reading it wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: new venomthroups   new venomthroups I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07 2014, 22:18

i think MurDok's problem(or point) could be summed up as, if they are not cululitive with them selves, why bother saying that they are cumulitive with eachother? they are different special rules, thus would stack by default, why bother saying anything on the matter at all if they were not meant to stack with themselves?

this could also be one of those special cases that GW puts the game and says "its up to the players(TO's)"
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