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Thor665
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Lord Puberis
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PostSubject: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 29 2014, 15:06

Ok,
So I am brand new to the 40k world, with only a small amount of experience at WFB, I have finally managed to get enough models to challenge my friend to a game.
He is a CSM Player and we are playing a 1250 point game.
His list will look something like this

Sorcerer
Terminators
Hellbrute
Cultists
Marines
Rhino
Warp talons
Spawn
With a couple of allied daemons as well (heralds of nurgle?)

He has sportingly agreed to leave out his hell drake as its my first ever game!!
Though he may have a vindicator in there as well!!

As for my collection, I have enough to put out most units, barring beast packs, scourges grots, and I have a distinct lack of HS... I only have 1 razor wing!!
I have 3 venoms and 2 raiders and plenty of troops!!
It's not ultra competitive ( as the ommission of the helldrake shows) but I still want to win,

Can you guys give me some rough ideas of potential unit builds and a couple of basic tricks to use?

Cheers all

Jk
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Lord Puberis
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 29 2014, 15:26

Oh, and I love incubi!!!

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.....Brings it on a roof rack, leans out the window, rolls a 2+.Wins. Goes Home.
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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 29 2014, 19:14

My other army is CSM, so I know where he's coming from.
I'd absolutely recommend using all 3 venoms and both raiders. You want all the poison you can get your hands on to take out the Spawn, Marines, and Warp Talons. Perhaps filling the raiders with kabalite warriors? I'd add splinter cannons, but dark lances aren't a terrible choice either.

The razorwing is a decent support choice helping you take out the Helbrute, Rhino, Vindi, Cultists with the blasts, and it'll let you Instant Death his terminators and Sorcerer (S8 vs T4, baby! Unless he goes Nurgle). Dark Lances on your two raiders will also help in this respect.

Incubi are fantastic vs Marines & Termies, just make sure you've got them running with someone who has a Phantasm Grenade Launcher. Incubi NEED to strike first with their I6, or terminators will tear their faces off. And if the termies are hiding in cover, you're in trouble. Archon w/Shadow Field, PGL, Huskblade, maybe drugs? Running him with 4 plain jane incubi in a Venom usually works for me.
And KEEP THE INCUBI AWAY FROM THE WARP TALONS.

He really doesn't have much in the way of shooty with this list, or anti-tank. The Helbrute will likely have some heavy guns, and obviously the Vindi. But you'll have the speed to stay out of his way.
The best advice I've ever gotten on this forum is "kill the things that can kick you out of your vehicles first". So target his anti-vehicle weapons ASAP, then tear his force apart 1 by 1.

Just remember the spawn have a 24" threat bubble with their 12" move, and they love to hug cover. Poison is the best counter to them.

Lastly, all his units have champions, aka sergeants in them. And he has no choice but to challenge your champions with them. Trick is, if he wins those challenges his champs get stronger. So don't be scared to hide from challenges (though maybe not with your archon, he needs to be killing things all the time) and maybe try minimize the # of sybarites etc that you bring.

GLHF

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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 29 2014, 21:10

I've only played one game with DE, so someone more experienced please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was against CSM. I believe the stock loadout for a Hellbrute is a Multimelta, so you want to take it out ASAP. Nightshields on anything you can get them on are clutch in keeping the bolters from harming the transports, assuming you are able to keep distance. What I did was drive around with my guys in the raider (with Splinter Racks), and shoot stuff without getting shot back at until it was time to claim objectives.
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 30 2014, 01:07

Multimelta/Powerfist, yeah. 24" S8 AP1, Melta at 12" range. If it gets close don't even bother praying, just fire whatever you have left.
But as a walker, it's only moving 6" +d6 every turn if he runs. What I'd be worried about is if he ups it to Plasma Cannon or Lascannon w/Missile Launcher. 36 & 48" range.
Nightshields are definitely awesome, but not sure they're worth the points vs CSM. Yeah bolters are annoying, but for you to get close enough to shoot with splinter rifles from Kabalites you need to be within 24" anyway. Possibly a couple inches closer if you want to kill more than the front rank. Even with NS they can move 6" and open fire. As for their bigger guns, most of CSM's Anti-Tank is 48" and hitting you regardless.

A common strategy for playing with DE is called "slicing the pie." Basically, set up the match so you can focus on one flank of the map. Only expose yourself to the part of his army you're planning on immediately killing. Don't be scared to dedicate 3 units to wiping out 1 of his if 2 should be enough. Pain tokens are your friend, and overkill is how to earn them.
Say he deploys first, and spreads across the whole board. You then have the luxury of deciding which side you want to start blowing up, and deploy concentrated there.

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I dedicate these deaths to Odin Allfather, Spearshaker, One Eye.
Fleet Shadowmaker - Kabal of the Dying Sun; Cult of Marrow Excised; Coven of Lambent Hunger
Sons of the Last Breath - Chaos Space Marines
Host of Shattered Purity - Chaos Daemons
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Lord Puberis
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 30 2014, 16:55

Cheers for the advice, will post how it goes! Pretty sure that due to both our inexperience (mine more severe than his) it will be scrappy,
I have going for 2 lots of 10 kabbies with cannon in raiders, 4 incubi with archon in venom, 5 haywyches in venom, 4 blaster born and two dark lance trueborn on foot,also token razor wing! May as well use the best units I have for my first run out!!!
Will let you know how it goes!!!

Jk

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Flying round space with pointy ears in cardboard aeroplanes

"I think the next stage for him is to remortgage and bring a captial Ship...
.....Brings it on a roof rack, leans out the window, rolls a 2+.Wins. Goes Home.
Its the future we're all facing"
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 30 2014, 16:59

@Laughingcarp wrote:
A common strategy for playing with DE is called "slicing the pie."
...we call it this?  scratch 

 Wink 

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Lord Puberis
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 30 2014, 22:54

So finished my game!
I lost in the end, largely through me being a little too timid and getting caught up in my own end!
We played the end to end deployment option, and allowed myself to get penned up a little bit!

Stars of the fight however went to my kabalite warriors, who after having their raider popped in turn 1 by his plasma carrying marine, proceeded to make 9 out of ten 5+ saves from the explosion, then now down the marines earning a pain token, then avoiding 2 tank shocks ran across the board and wiped out his two spawn and bike riding warlord with their splinter rifles!! Epic!!

The incubi sliced up his termies and the warp talons ( I know I should have avoided them but I was trying to clear them off an objective)

Unfortunately my dark lance shots on my trueborn, raider and razor wing all failed to kill anything as I continually rolled 1's to pen any of his tanks!!!

The blaster born killed his hellbrute before getting boomed by the vindicator and oblit before getting killed by the aforementioned spawn (not before killing on of them in cc however).
In the end just struggled to dictate the pace as I should have!!

But a lot of fun was had by all!!

As a final question, how do I get my archon past his inability to wound anything? He takes nurgle so everything is high toughness, should I look towards a power weapon? It maybe a venom blade and hope to do enough wounds on terminators to make him fail a 2+ save?

_________________
Flying round space with pointy ears in cardboard aeroplanes

"I think the next stage for him is to remortgage and bring a captial Ship...
.....Brings it on a roof rack, leans out the window, rolls a 2+.Wins. Goes Home.
Its the future we're all facing"
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 04:03

Problem with that is you're still on the low end of the probability meter.

A real archon when challenged by a terminator champion would just step back and let his incubi do the work. Unless he brought his huskblade of course.

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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 05:31

Ah.....Archon hits after they have been shot to bits by Venoms or other things. That is just how I use them, and the Aggy is always a lovely weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 08:04

I did bring the husk blade, but it doesn't help when trying to wound a T5 chaos sorcerer on a bike, it's sixes to wound!
Granted, if I get one and he fails, he dies, but it's not a high probability!

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Flying round space with pointy ears in cardboard aeroplanes

"I think the next stage for him is to remortgage and bring a captial Ship...
.....Brings it on a roof rack, leans out the window, rolls a 2+.Wins. Goes Home.
Its the future we're all facing"
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 10:03

Aggy is 15 points less and wounds on 4 and ignores armor.
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 10:41

@JackKnife01 wrote:
Aggy is  15 points less and wounds on 4 and ignores armor.

Agoniser is AP3 vs the Huskblade's AP2.

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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 11:30

That's what I thought!
Do I just go for weight of attacks then?

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Flying round space with pointy ears in cardboard aeroplanes

"I think the next stage for him is to remortgage and bring a captial Ship...
.....Brings it on a roof rack, leans out the window, rolls a 2+.Wins. Goes Home.
Its the future we're all facing"
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 11:54

Versus a Chaos Sorceror you'd be better off with the Agoniser as he only has a 3+ save. If you're up against something with a 2+ save your best options are either a Venom Blade or a Huskblade.

Assuming a T5, 2+/5++ opponent the numbers are:

Venom Blade: 3.33 hits, 2.78 wounds, 0.46 unsaved wounds
Huskblade: 3.33 hits, 0.56 wounds, 0.37 unsaved wounds (+ Instant Death)

So you're more likely to wound with a Venom Blade but you have to do enough wounds to kill the opponent. You only need one wound with a Huskblade but obviously there's a hefty points cost difference.

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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 15:48

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Versus a Chaos Sorceror you'd be better off with the Agoniser as he only has a 3+ save. If you're up against something with a 2+ save your best options are either a Venom Blade or a Huskblade.

Assuming a T5, 2+/5++ opponent the numbers are:

Venom Blade: 3.33 hits, 2.78 wounds, 0.46 unsaved wounds
Huskblade: 3.33 hits, 0.56 wounds, 0.37 unsaved wounds (+ Instant Death)

So you're more likely to wound with a Venom Blade but you have to do enough wounds to kill the opponent. You only need one wound with a Huskblade but obviously there's a hefty points cost difference.

This. And remember. Winners do use drugs. While a bonus to run and weapon skill are pretty crap on an archon, +1 strength, +1 attack, re-rolling wounds, or starting with a pain token can all make it easier to wound the opponent. Babe Ruth did it, Mark McGwire did it, Barry Bonds did it, and Lance Armstrong did it. If you want a bit more of an edge in your assault use drugs. I prefer mine as a cream.
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 15:52

just a note, if you're running coven type units, stick an archon with huskblade in with grots/wracks and a haemy. he starts with 2 pain tokens that way so he's S4 on the charge! :-)
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 17:23

Anyone ever try a Haemy with a Huskblade for that matter? If he's outputting marginally less wounds a Huskblade than he is with a Venom Blade maybe he should be a one Husk wonder IC?
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 17:25

on a haemy ancient maybe, he'd have more attacks and better weapon skill to make use of it. he wont survive the retribution if he fails though, unlike a shadowfield archon.
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 17:33

Yeah I think I'd sooner give his Grot bodyguard a Flesh Gauntlet if I want ID fun and be done with it.
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 17:36

@lcfr wrote:
Yeah I think I'd sooner give his Grot bodyguard a Flesh Gauntlet if I want ID fun and be done with it.
ditto. I hope our coven HQ's get the chance to take at least a clone field in a future codex, you'd think they'd have some sense of self-preservation wouldn't you?! :-)
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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 17:39

They have the vexator mask but that's very, very meh. Especially at the cost of an arcane wargear slot.

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PostSubject: Re: My first ever game   My first ever game I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 31 2014, 18:04

...must feel like a million bucks when someone fails that LD test though hehheh
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