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 Archons: A Must?

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Marrath
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 12:15

I'm planning on picking an archon because i want the Djinn Blade and he's the only one that can carry it. I like the design and idea idea of the Djinn Blade from the codex.
It's probably not optimal from a competitive viewpoint, but i hope it will make for some wtf moments in friendly games.

What do you guys think of the Djinn Blade?

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Denizen in the Dark
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 20:58

Djinn Blade is garbage..you're basically paying 20 point for 2 extra attacks,that can hit you..PASS!

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 21:19

Well, technically, you can use Clone Field to nullify self-hits.

You can also take Combat Drugs, Ghostplate and Soul Trap in an attemt to build eat-your-face archon. High risk - high reward. Sure, you can kill yourself. But you can also go on a mad killing spree with S10 Archon.

And neither you nor your opponent know what will happen.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 21:52

Couldn't you just do the same with a Huskblade? Less attacks but the ID effect certainly helps balance that, and no fear of self-hits.

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 22:08

Yeah... But Thor, who REALLY wants a blade that doesn't hit themselves in the face?

I know which I'd go with... affraid 

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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 22:56

@Azdrubael wrote:
Well, technically, you can use Clone Field to nullify self-hits.
Is that legal? Because my (german) codex says the 2 attacks automatically hit the wielder.
Which is kinda fuzzy.

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 23:55

That just means that your archon does not have to roll to hit himself, the clonefield is resolved after hits have been allocated onto your archon, even by himself. He can then choose which hits he will take on the clonefield.

EG. Archon Djin Blade, Ghostplate Armour, Clonefield
- You Roll a D3 for how many hits your Clonefield can absorb this turn, scoring a 5 so 3 hits can be absorbed.
- Your high initiative Archon goes first but roll a double with his Djinn blade.
- So your 2 attacks hit your Archon
- You decide to take one hit with the Clonefield
- you roll to wound yourself with the other hit and succeed.
- The AP 3 Djinn blade ignores your armour save but your roll your 6+ invulnerable and fail.
- Your Archon has 2 wounds remaining
- He can still absorb/negate 2 more hits this turn with the Clonefield.

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the baron
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 25 2014, 00:41

Been having a lot of good times lately with my 70 point Archon.

Haywire Grenades and Venom Blade, usually joined with Wyches if there are dreads or with Incubi.

His whole purpose is to help them beat an objective camping unit, assault a Wraithknight or Dread & win for cheap, or to draw a disproportionate amount of fire towards a small point HQ.

Basically: with low expectations comes little disappointment.
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Denizen in the Dark
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 26 2014, 20:53

@Azdrubael wrote:
Well, technically, you can use Clone Field to nullify self-hits.

You can also take Combat Drugs, Ghostplate and Soul Trap in an attemt to build eat-your-face archon. High risk - high reward. Sure, you can kill yourself. But you can also go on a mad killing spree with S10 Archon.

And neither you nor your opponent know what will happen.

Believe me you're going to need the clone field for something other than the djinn Blade.

Plus the you don't always get that nice 3 attacks negated.


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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 02 2014, 14:51

Marrath Schlagschatten wrote:
I'm planning on picking an archon because i want the Djinn Blade and he's the only one that can carry it. I like the design and idea idea of the Djinn Blade from the codex.
It's probably not optimal from a competitive viewpoint, but i hope it will make for some wtf moments in friendly games.

What do you guys think of the Djinn Blade?

I think it's pretty pants tbh. S3 attacks are meh, and if you employ the Soul Trap you're now wielding the only weapon in the game that can insta-kill its owner. Also, I'd rather my Archon was making fewer Shadowfield saves - not more.  tongue

Anyway, I'd probably have fewer issues with the thing if it wasn't so expensive. If it was a cheap weapon with a downside, then that might be more interesting (and could be a fun extra on a 'Gunslinger' Archon). But, for 20pts, I just don't see any value in it.



Anyway, with regard to Archon being a must... no. Just no.

The problem for me is that, even though he's just one edition out of date, the Archon feels like a relic of a bygone age. An HQ from an era when CC was actually worth spending points on. As it stands, I struggle to find reasons to take one over a plain old Haemonculus - who is cheaper, buffs a squad and can have a good flamer.

On the other hand, the Archon:
- Needs a specialist melee squad to accompany him (Something I really don't want to spend points on in this edition. Also, such squads are either very fragile, or lack fleet - neither are desirable.)
- Tends to cost about twice as much as a Haemonculus with a Liquifier Gun
- Needs various upgrades to be worthwhile (Shadowfield and venom blades, at the very least)
- Is reliant on the Shadowfield for protection (and you know he's going to fail that save sooner or later...)
- Is reliant on paper-thin craft to get him to combat

Furthermore, especially looking at recent books, I just don't see his damage output as being anything to write home about. He's got, what, 5 attacks that either wound on a 2+ with no AP or are AP3 and wound on 4s? Well, tell that to the ~125pt Chaos Lord who has 5-10 S6 AP2 attacks.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the Archon is worthless or anything. But, as it stands, I'd need to be persuaded to take him, rather than needing to be persuaded not to.
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 02 2014, 15:15

Shredder, I agree with you on the most part, however a couple of extra thoughts for you: a specialist combat unit that stands decent survivability from shooting (and thus not relying on flimsy transport) are Harlequins; preferably the DE variety in my opinion (shadowseer is needed). The ability to move through terrain without penalty is great - it is possible to position the unit (in area terrain) in a way that leaves the archon outside the terrain (for greater movement capability) and therefore will not slow the unit. Alternatively the archon can leap into the terrain for an easy 2+ cover save (and thus save on shorting out his shadowfield).

They also have the benefit of having hit and run which means that, depending on your squad size, you can either occupy an enemy unit during their turn of combat and hit and run out to give you an extra charge against them or another enemy squad in your turn, OR you can choose to leave during the opponents turn, leap into some nearby terrain for the 2+ cover save and give your opponent the concern of whether to bothering charging into the cover that you now occupy.

The Archon's damage output is actually very decent but is reliant on random factors and his positioning on the battlefield. The first affects his combat drugs roll (which can be lethal) and the second means whether a Soul Trap is successful or not. Armed with a huskblade (AP 2) and with 6 attacks on the charge the guy is a monster if he manages to slay an enemy character / monstrous creature as he becomes Strength 6.

The downside, as you state quite correctly, is his cost. I think bluntly that an Archon is only a must if your local meta is requiring a hard counter to Monstrous creatures and high armoured units / characters. The greater discussion of whether we have better counters to this is worthy of debate but I certainly think that the Archon has a use, if not such an optimal one any more.

PS. I totally realise the mathhammer discussion (personally isolating something like Unit A + Unit B = Unit C never really works as battles are far more complex than that with multiple units involved) that will likely arise as a result of suggesting harlequins as a delivery unit but in theory, once the Archon has a pain token and one in the Soul Trap, theres little reason to say he can't go off solo after that point leaving the Harlies to go off and deal with another unit/section of the enemy line.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 02 2014, 15:42

@dangerous beans wrote:
Shredder, I agree with you on the most part, however a couple of extra thoughts for you: a specialist combat unit that stands decent survivability from shooting (and thus not relying on flimsy transport) are Harlequins; preferably the DE variety in my opinion (shadowseer is needed). The ability to move through terrain without penalty is great - it is possible to position the unit (in area terrain) in a way that leaves the archon outside the terrain (for greater movement capability) and therefore will not slow the unit. Alternatively the archon can leap into the terrain for an easy 2+ cover save (and thus save on shorting out his shadowfield).

Thing is, it's not just about survivability against shooting - it's also about speed. With the changes to rapid fire, ranged units now have a lot more mobility, so the task is often getting to your intended target quickly.

That being said, Harlequins may indeed be one of the better choices to accompany an Archon. Although, it's the sort of choice where I start to wonder if the Archon himself is actually needed. They already have plenty of attacks and can get rending - do they need an Archon to accompany them?

@dangerous beans wrote:
The Archon's damage output is actually very decent but is reliant on random factors and his positioning on the battlefield. The first affects his combat drugs roll (which can be lethal) and the second means whether a Soul Trap is successful or not. Armed with a huskblade (AP 2) and with 6 attacks on the charge the guy is a monster if he manages to slay an enemy character / monstrous creature as he becomes Strength 6.

To be fair, I think the bigger downside to soul trap is just getting a chance to use it. Outside of Tyranids, I don't see many MCs - and fewer still that I'd want to send an Archon against (most have an invulnerable save and are at least S6). Likewise, I rarely see more than 1 HQ, so most opponent's only have to keep one squad away from the Archon.

I agree that an Archon with a S6 Huskblade is a beast. But, for me, there are just too many steps that can go wrong in terms of getting him to that strength. He then has to kill an IC or MC - which usually have invulnerable saves, and he'll need 6s to wound them. Furthermore, if he wins, he then has to survive a round of being shot at - this when your opponent will almost certainly flag him as a priority target. And then, there have to be enough turns left for him to actually put his S6 to good use.

*Shrugs* Maybe I'm just too cynical, but when I look at the Archon/Huskblade/Soul-Trap, all I see is a long list of things that could easily go wrong and leave him stranded or dead.
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 02 2014, 20:41

Dude that same list of reasons is why I'm simply including him my current list as a super-blaster guy with a 2 invulnerable to survive all the firepower that will undoubtedly be aimed his way Very Happy I agree that normally the steps required to get this guy to this position just aren't practical enough unless you're playing 2000pt+ games.

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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 02 2014, 23:49

I've used my archon in 2 games, with a djin blade and shadow field, in both games with that load out he took his dam shield off HIMSELF in the first combat he got into  Mad 

with a husk blade I think it's a struggle to power him up in time, and it's difficult to manoeuvre to the right targets ( if there is any) for him to 'feed on'.
I think a cheap blaster archon could be useful, but he feels abit boring to be leading an army,

I wouldn't say he's mandatory, I have great fun using a succubus ( tho it's in smaller point games)
And she always surprises me with a venon blade... Then again I seem to always pass the 4++ dodge and fail the 2++ shadow field, go figure  Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 03 2014, 00:52

I've started running a succubus as well and have found him to be just as effective as the archon, more so even. Because the 4++ doesn't go away. Wish I could kit him out a bit more, but for the price you can't beat him.

Still I'd say Haemonculi are probably our best HQ choice. I'll see if my mind changes as I get more games with the Succubus.

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