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lcfr
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PostSubject: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 17 2014, 17:36

Just wondering what folks' thoughts are....is the Archon a 'must-have' unit in a Dark Eldar force?

Is the pure killiness of an Archon just one of those things the Dark Eldar have and very few other armies possess, and many have a hard time dealing with? Anyone out there who would forego running an Archon without serious second thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 17 2014, 17:46

I don't think an Archon is a must have.

I also don't think his 'killiness' is actually all that impressive in the grand scheme of assault HQs.

I often run no Archon with no second thoughts.

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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 17 2014, 17:56

For me, the big thing that leads me to an Archon time and time again - in fact I've yet to run anything else - is survivability. A shadowfield Archon takes, dice willing, some killing. The succubus and haemonculi are far more fragile.
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 17 2014, 18:30

The one unique thing Archon have, as was mentioned, is a Shadowfield.

I cant imagine a reason to take Archon without it.

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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 18 2014, 13:10

@Azdrubael wrote:
The one unique thing Archon have, as was mentioned, is a Shadowfield.

I cant imagine a reason to take Archon without it.
Not quite; PGL is probably the best reason to take him. If you're running grots or incubi, you kind of need a PGL in there.
His access to AP2 ID weapon makes him a decent candidate for challenges, combat drugs often help too. +1A, +1s and re-roll wounds are all great rolls to help on that front. One failed invul and you've got slay the warlord and potentially double your strength (if you take soul trap)

In a shooty list, he's a better choice than a succy/haemy, given his access to a blaster. Ghostplate and venom blade are cheap optional upgrades if you want basic combat capability + survivability.
Put him in blaster-born and he's pretty much gonna cook whatever he shoots and can dish a lot of damage to lightly armoured troops like eldar/tau/guard in CC.

this all said, he is not a no-brainer choice.
If your enemy plays character light or is unlikely to end up in challenges, the ultimate challenger build is total overkill.
If you have no need of AP2 weapons or his PGL, the succubus is the cheaper alternative.
for low points games, it's hard to overlook the vastly cheaper haemonculus.
A couple of the special characters bring a lot of value for the cost too which can easily push your archon aside. the duke and the baron are both excellent for their costs, either improving dakka-born's poison + free retrofire jets or unlocking hellions as troops + buffinh beastmasters can be more than enough to override your generic character choice
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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 18 2014, 17:18

I haven't run or thought about running an Archon since 1998.

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 01:24

I wonder why Serpent?! Laughing

In all seriousness, I can't decide any more between Haemies, cheap Succis (/easy Kill Points) or the jack of all trades (but expensive) Archon. I do feel that there is a place for Archons and as Csjarrat says the PGL is a very good (if not the best) reason to take him, however the 'punchbag'/character assassin is good too if you can get him into contact with the enemy. The cheap option is as a very effective blasterborn guy, however is his extra expense worth this? How often do you need that extra +1 to hit followed by a 5+ to hit re-roll if that misses?

When I field an Archon I either go all in with equipment or not at all, and that depends on the game size - 1750+ points he's a maybe, anything less and its a no 2000+ and its a probably yes!

His worth depends on the ability to slay specific parts of the enemy force that we have difficulty both reaching (survivability) and killing worthwhile targets (offensive capability). For me, the commonality of worthwhile targets goes up as the points value of the game goes up. Interestingly the useage he gets out of his shadowfield also goes up as the enemy will use any AP 4 Str 6+ weapon to try and deal with him, just watch out for rending Shurikan Cannons from our beloved battle brothers...

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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 02:43

I think last night is when I decided to permanently retire my archon. I played two games.

First game. Wave serpent popped his boat, wraithknight put large s6 blast over him and incubi that didn't scatter. Rolled a 1. Goodbye 145 points. Well 347 if you count the raider and incubi. I lost this game badly. First introduction to wave serpents and eldar. Did kill his wraithknight there's a morale victory.

Second game. Imoktep or whatever his name is that does the random lightning in nightfighting. Opponent rolled a six on his unit he and three incubi take 5 s8 attacks. Rolled a 1. I won this game.

Generally my archon is always garbage. If he can get into close combat, he's a beast, but shadowfield is deceptively useless. At least for me. I've had it short out on vehicle explosions. Overwatch fire, you name it. When I win a game, generally my warlord has contributed nothing to my army outside of filling the required HQ choice and at 145 points, that's a lot of points to spend on nothing. Your mileage may vary.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 07:21

Well for me, CC archons dont work either. Not counting Sliscus and Baron, who have other benefits to the army. However a Vanilla Archon + Blaster + SF is different matter. Several times already he saved my 4 blaster Trueborns from Vehicle explosion so they can send another turn of 4-lance-shots. That usually means dead vehicle/tank and another round of the enemy shooting to get rid of them, which is more than equal point-for-point. :-)
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 07:34

For that, wouldn't it just be more affordable to slap him in some Ghostplate or something? At that point you're functionally just running him as a beefy Trueborn who can absorb explosion damage - a 4+ save would do that pretty much just as well as the 2+ since, on average, the squad is looking at 3-4 wounds coming at them, and he'd still save 1-2 and the squad would still be unscathed as he could easily accept any excess wounds himself. All at a savings of 20 points, which is not a small amount.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 07:56

Well the point is that I have played games where SF swallowed about 10-12 hits. :-) 4+ is just too low. Huge number of guns just bypass that. Bear in mind that 2++ is also a deterrent. It makes the enemy think about commiting his firepower for an uncertain result. And it is usually much more firepower than 35pts. ;-)

It really depends on your build, but with Lance builds it makes sense to protect your 5-lance battery. :-)
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 11:28

@dangerous beans wrote:
I wonder why Serpent?! Laughing
The cheap option is as a very effective blasterborn guy, however is his extra expense worth this? How often do you need that extra +1 to hit followed by a 5+ to hit re-roll if that misses?
well you need to take at least one HQ choice for a legal army. if a succy is gonna be too sucky and a heamy brings no value, you might as well have a super accurate lance shot instead.
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 16:21

@Csjarrat wrote:
well you need to take at least one HQ choice for a legal army.
Wait, what, now you tell me?! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Edit: my reference to Sky Serpent was regarding his very overt and literal love for Duke Sliscus Wink

Very true my main man and with reflection on vehicle explosions/the 5th L33Tblasterborn this actually makes a very good and viable sense. Plus during my KP game I can to value the ability to keep your warlord alive and prevent your oppoenent from earning that extra KP from killing him.

Has anyone tried a Power Axe + Drugs + Soul Trap + S.Field for challenges against MEQ characters? I guess it wouldn't matter too much about going last with the field. Just need a delivery unit for him; wracks in a venom?

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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 21:23

yeah i tried him. lost him once to a power maul though before he got to swing, which was pretty humiliating for a DE. I prefer huskblade.
i know its a ton of points but swinging at I is great.
I sometimes run a mini-deathstar with grots, 3-4 grots with heamy and archon. starts with furious charge which helps the huskblade immensely and the majority T5 means he can weather some overwatch/shooting prior to CC as well.
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 23:00

Brilliant! I love the Furious Charge reasoning, not sure why I'd not thought of that! Smile Big meaty (literally) unit though, does it usually prove to be cost effective?

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 20 2014, 04:32

While not considered necessary I find it hard to see why one wouldn't want to include an archon. He's very killy and pretty cheap compared to other similarly capable ICs and fills a compulsory slot. Mine almost always rolls with grot retinue and he is always a huge threat. Usual kit is simple: sf, hb/vb at 130 or sf vb at 95, add haywire if pts allow. The unit hunts MCs, HQs, and gunlines very effectively, armour too and soaks fire all day, even better with farseer support. Anyway the archon is the lynchpin and while he has died pathetically here and there he's also completely wrecked some of the hardest units and models in the game for me. Plus people fear ws7 i7 instant death. Hell 6 vb attacks will butcher units too. So for me the answer is YES an archon is a must (I include duke).
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clively
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 20 2014, 17:11

@Brom,
I think it boils down to play style.  It's been a long time since I've run an Archon.  My go to HQ is a Haemi.  He gives me a free pain token that I usually hand out to some Reavers, which helps keep them alive.  Also, by allowing wracks to be troops I can have an extremely cheap unit for sitting on a back field objective. It's a rare day when my backfield is under attack, while FNP, especially attaached early on to harassment units can help inspire fear in my opponent and help me control the flow of the game.

My style is to keep my HQ back and away from the main fighting in order to deny my opponent a quick VP.  In other words I try to stay focused on the objectives.  Having an HQ in a forward position makes it too easy to give up a free point.  Each point you give up translates into 2 you need to acquire: one to tie, the second to win.  

I think the only scenario I would consider not using this strategy would be Purge the Alien in which we generally need to table the opponent to win.  For that, the entire army needs to be highly aggressive and killy.

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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 21 2014, 13:33

I like brining the haemy for the buffs he can bring first turn. Granting a pain token is always nice to make us more resilient. I rarely bring an archon as well, but my lists are built around tying enemy units up while shooting other scoring units to death. To each his own though

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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 21 2014, 18:22

The thing I like most about our army in 40k is that nothing is a must, what you take for a list is really dependent on what your meta looks like and right now the Baron, Duke and a Farseer are kicking arse pretty hard around my parts lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 21 2014, 19:30

I would take three Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 21 2014, 20:29

Always take an Archon.

Whenever I've taken anything else I've found that they haven't performed as well as my Archon usually does. I wouldn't say it's a must have; I know of lots of lists that don't use an Archon, but personally I love them.

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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 22 2014, 22:17

Hey everyone, just joined the city been looking and reading for awhile now.

In my army, I've only been playing it for 2 months, I always take an archon. standard 145 drugs trap husk and shadow. He rides with his bros of 8 wracks 1 hemo. 2 pain tokens up front give him str4 on the charge and right now with current meta around my parts MCs are everywhere.

So far i've yet to lose a game in the 10 games i've played, 5 have been against tyranids (there could be a connect). He has 1 shotted 2 tfexs, 2 hive tyrants, a harpy, a trygon, 2 carnis, and 1 swarmy.
I'd take him over just about any other CC HQ honestly, sure his invuln is chancey but in melee he cleans house. P.s. yet to lose my archon.
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Denizen in the Dark
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 00:27

I run 2 archons.

1 tooled up tanking wounds with his shadowfield(in bigger games with a farseer)

The other I keep back with a unit of Wyches(2 shardnets,Hekatrix w/PGL) in my zone near an objective.
He's kitted out with the following:
Clonefield,Ghostplate armor,agoniser.

This unit does really well,all they do is hold ground.
But in close combat they shine,I have really put the beating on some tough units.
Paired with the PGL in terrain they stay alive long enough to hit..the shardnets keep the other guys boss down to a minimum of attacks and clonefield takes care of rest.

Close combat is not dead people,you just have to think about it a bit more.

Just saying..

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 01:08

I really love that second archon archetype there Denizen, do you find that the agoniser is enough? I'm wondering how that unit would do vs 2+ armoured stuff, I guess not too badly thanks to the drop in attacks from the shardnets... Very Happy

What sized unit of wyches do you tend to run this in?

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PostSubject: Re: Archons: A Must?   Archons: A Must? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 01:44

I run the wyches in a 10 chic squad,with a hekatrix.
Remember the wyches are basically a reserve/standby unit.
KW's do the heavy lifting.
The agonizer works well for the troops that are trying to take my objective.,usually it's marines with a +3 up..plus monstrous creatures/daemons still get wounded on 4's.
+2 armor will make you struggle,so keep and eye on things coming towards them.

Anything they can't handle gets shot to death depending on the mission.
They can hold their own,+4 up dodge and the clonefield keep them churning!

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