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 Asdrubael Vect?

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40kScribe
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PostSubject: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 17 2014, 05:37

The title (and sub-title) says it all: would you include Vect in your army -- and if so, under what conditions? These conditions can range from anything from local meta, to competitive play, to specific list-build and style of play, to specific points value (say for example, taking him at 2000 points, but not at 1000 points).

I ask this question because as a newb to D.E. (I've only painted a single model and just finished working on the preliminaries of my army list), most people suggest that I don't take him, stating that he's too expensive for what he brings to the table (and indeed, that seems to be the general word of advice in forums and in web articles everywhere!). Yet the ability to go first turn and steal First Blood (rather than giving it up due to flimsy AV) makes me feel as if I must take him (along with the Baron)

Thoughts? Comments? pirat 

Note: I ALWAYS try to steal First Blood (it's the one victory point that only 1 person can get!), so it's only natural that I gravitate towards the idea of an alpha strike -- or something that allows me to use a gimmick to get it. Again though, your ideas are welcome

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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 17 2014, 10:19

I find it really hard to justify playing him in anything other than a pure fluff list or 2k+ lists, he is great at destroying MEQ and MCs but to take him for purely the worry of going 2nd it's not worth it you can fit another 2 ravagers with change or troop choices. If you need to go first just take the Baron and make sure you have tactics for deploying 2nd.

I think the big problem with taking him is coming to rely on having first turn which even with vect and baron you won't always get and it's very important to know how to deploy and what to do after having lost 3+ transports turn 1.

Also people who face you will be expecting you to want first turn and deploy to deny that advantage.
I would suggest learning without him or testing against people where you just go 2nd so you learn how to deal with that and then start reaping the rewards of going first most of the time.

Tactics wise. Best to field him with grotesques and an aberration or incubi and klaivex just keep an extra character or 2 in his squad to take challenges from 2+ save necron overlords and terminators
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 17 2014, 10:58

@helvexis wrote:
Tactics wise. Best to field him with grotesques and an aberration or incubi and klaivex just keep an extra character or 2 in his squad to take challenges from 2+ save necron overlords and terminators
This itself is also a problem with Vect. Where do you put him? He needs a reliable escort to get him where he needs to go. Grotesques or Incubi are decent options for him. But the first lacks AP2 killing power and the second lacks resilience and grenades. A beastpack with Baron is also a decent option, but Vect himself slows them down. Wyches or Bloodbrides are a waste in CC, so also not really an option.

Both Grotesques and Incubi with multiple Raiders to transport them (as you most certainly need a backup when your main Raider goes down) add a fair number of points to an already very expensive independent character. They will surely be a prime target for any opponent.
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 17 2014, 12:57

To me, the AP2 ability/actual killing power of the unit are not big issues. Vect is capable of carrying the unit by his own against most things and has no wish to go anywhere near TEQ type troops. We should have the mobility to ensure that he doesn't and, if paranoid about this, find some Harlies or the Baron for Hit and Run.

Grotesques seem the obvious choice to me, they'll give your opponent a real job cutting your way through to him and apply a good amount of hurt themselves. Elsewise, why not Wyches? They'll teach anyone thinking of using a Dreadnought to squash him a really big lesson.

Incubi, sadly, would be just about my last choice, as anything touched by that unit is disappearing into red mist, at which point they'll be promptly shot to death.
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 17 2014, 15:37

@wanderingblade wrote:
Incubi, sadly, would be just about my last choice, as anything touched by that unit is disappearing into red mist, at which point they'll be promptly shot to death.

I love my incubi, and unfortunately this is an issue that occurs...but i love how you explained this.  I'm at work and had a hard time not busting out laughing...hehe..red mist
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 17 2014, 18:04

Gee, I wonder who those initial Vect bashers were...

Here's my thought on Vect. He isn't about getting first turn, that's not what he does, there is nothing in his abilities that help you get first turn, I've looked and double checked this, and I don't understand the people who say he is anything about first turn. He is not.

Vect is about seizing the initiative. This is a totally different thing.

With Vect, you want second turn. You want to allow your opponent to go first, and as he's setting up you should certainly remind him that Vect has that good ol' seize on a 4+ power. What this does is make your opponent waste his first turn, because he'll be scared and will deploy his army as though he is going second, not going first. He'll keep stuff in reserve, he'll hide behind cover, he'll deploy back from his board edge, ect. ect. all in the expectation that Vect will seize and go first.

Then, you get to set up seeing how your opponent has deployed, nd at that point you get to make a value call on if you'd like to seize. Sometime you may want to, maybe he has left stuff exposed that you are sure you can devastate. Other times you may not wish to, your army might want a bit of time to position itself, or be looking for its reserves to arrive, or maybe even is going to take no damage on the first turn because of how your foe deployed.

Going first is actually almost meaningless.
It doesn't help anything in the game by itself besides the ability to pick deployment side.
Going second actually has intrinsic value in a number of ways, especially in seeing your opponent's deployment before making yours and also in objective games where going second is provably superior for claiming points.

Now, being the first player to inflict significant damage on your opponent? That is pretty darn important.

But it is only partially affected by first turn - it has a lot to do with threat bubbles, the board setup, and you and your opponent's army.

I, personally, build an army that prefers to go first, and can inflict first blood first turn if I go first because I have a lot of dark lances and splinter cannons on highly maneuverable units so there is almost no way for my opponent to evade or hide from a lot of shooting.

I have also played, and played against, Dark Eldar armies that are built for going second, and these also can get first blood, even against my other list, because they can sometimes manage to hide enough and then have a devastating turn in response to me coming forward to hurt them.

But First Blood, and Vect, are not a combined conversation. They are two different conversations.

I, personally, don't field Vect unless I'm playing Apocalypse, because the ability to seize there is massive, and his horrendous point costs are quite forgivable. I could see him working in an army, but I think it would need to be an army of at least 2000 points, and, honestly, in this day and  age I'd tend to start going for allies before going for Vect unless I wanted to play up the mindscrew and had built an army intending to go second.

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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 03:45

I agree completely with the above. \m/ I would also recommend inquisition allies and coteaz with 3 msu scoring units. Razorbacks with AC and psybolt bring in some reliable AA. I deploy my vect with a maxed out unit of beast packs ( x20 khymera, x6 flocks ) and also Baron. While exspensive, it is a hell of a unit and vect hardly slows them down with some minor conga lining. He also gives them prferrd enemy, reducing the need for CWE allies. Albeit not the fluffiest combo, but effective.
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 06:51

Well the Vect/Coteaz build was actually the winning list of a large tournament (Nova, methinks, but not sure). So yea... Vect has its uses, but you have to build a list around him. He is not strong enough beast to snap everything in twain, but he can put some serious hurt on MEQ. Pairing him with Incubi is adding too much killing power to them. I would go for Grots so you don't overkill and get shot to bits. Maybe Vect, 4 Grots, Haemi - get them where needed, unload Grots, Vect and both Tokens to have FNP and FC and just swirl around with Haemi for some Liquifun.

Albeit when you see the amount of points this costs, you will cry...
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 07:05

@aurynn wrote:
Albeit when you see the amount of points this costs, you will cry...
I also play Grey Knights. I'm used to things being expensive. Wink Not saying I'd necessarily do it -- and I have yet to allocate time to properly analysing everything that's been said here (although I've read through it all at least once). I lot of good food for thought..

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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 07:24

Well I just remembered, that it should be noted... Grots bring one serious advantage to Vect/any other HQ... Majority toughness of 5... ;-)
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 10:46

Majority T5 is amazebalz, but that many points footslogging it cause their paper machete aeroplane folded to a stiff wind is not.  Vect/Baron/beasts bring a faster unit with many wonderful USRs, stealth, hit and run, and preffered enemy among them. ( although, Vect brings PE to any unit he joins so i guess that one doesn't quite count) Another thing of note is that this unit pumps out about a venoms worth of splinter shots at 18". Little things do add up...
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 19 2014, 12:45

Well, Raider is faster then any Baron unit.

And this expensive raider if you dont have first turn should either start game in:
1) Protected position. (Out of LOS)
2) In Reserve
3) On the foot, with one or more transports around.
4) Protected by Void Shield

Thats enough tools to make this unit come into play.

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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 00:25

Hey all, I just started up a Dark Eldar detachment for my Eldar, and decided to come check out the Dark City.

I just took Vect AND his Dais in an allied detachment to a local 1850 tourney, and won. The AV13 on the Dais was fantastic, it survived every round (though in pretty rough shape first game). Second game, Vect zoomed across the board, hopped out and assaulted an IG unit manning a quad gun. He wiped the unit, took over the quad gun, and proceeded to shoot 2 Vendettas full of troops out of the sky in two subsequent turns. Ridiculous! Third game he seized the Initiative on an Eldar player, and a combination of Lances, poison, and two wave serpents Alpha-struck my opponent, taking out an entire D-Cannon battery, a Wave Serpent, and stunning a Night Spinner top of turn 1. Vect and his DE minions are fantastic, and I can't wait to get more games in.
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 00:36

Thanks for the review/stories Homeskillet! I'll take what you shared into consideration as I progress as a D.E. player!! Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 09:47

In addition, he absolutely murders any MC with 3+... Imagine Vect and 9 Kabalite buddies in his Dais. Move within 12'' of the MC, unload Vect, throw his "orb", unload 18 poison shots, which should take about 2 wounds off the MC, charge Vect into MC and watch his high Ini 7 rerollable attacks with 3+ wound and AP3 take care of the rest... He will be left in the open though most probably, so some sort of carefulness should be executed. Meanwhile the Dais takes care of some vehicle or other big guy. With any luck, you just made half and his retinue's and Dais' points back in one turn...
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 12:40

@Thor665 wrote:
Going first is actually almost meaningless. It doesn't help anything in the game by itself besides the ability to pick deployment side. (...)

But it is only partially affected by first turn - it has a lot to do with threat bubbles, the board setup, and you and your opponent's army.

Out of curiosity, how often do you play vs regular tourney IG with 3 manties and 3 vends, or alpha strike lists in general? This is 40k. Not warmachine, where going 2nd actualy can win you more games than going 1st.

It always did matter if you could go 1st or 2nd. It only makes it easier, if you have night fighting on. Lately with introduction of new encampments, escalation, D-str weaps, and all those most likely beeing inbuilt in next edition, going first is stronger even more.

It's true, that there are list built to go 2nd, and just becouse I go 2nd it doesnt mean I loose. But implying, the turn order has no affect in the game powerwise, is a huge blunder to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 15:50

If you have the right tools to execute an Alpha strike it is absoutely devastating in this game; DE have those tools. When I play Eldar, or even SM, depending on my list and my opponent's, I often defer first turn and go second, due to objective grabbing. DE are not good objective holders, they are killers; your strategy with them should reflect that if you want to win.

As to his poison 3+, my goal is to assault a Wraithknight and watch my opponent straight up cry when he kills it in one round of combat (after shooting first of course).
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 17:54

@ravenizer wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
Going first is actually almost meaningless. It doesn't help anything in the game by itself besides the ability to pick deployment side. (...)

But it is only partially affected by first turn - it has a lot to do with threat bubbles, the board setup, and you and your opponent's army.

Out of curiosity, how often do you play vs regular tourney IG with 3 manties and 3 vends, or alpha strike lists in general? This is 40k. Not warmachine, where going 2nd actualy can win you more games than going 1st.
I played a lot of tourney level through 3rd-6th, though will admit I petered off in 6th as the game stopped being interesting due to the design. I have faced and defeated (and been defeated) by a wide range of IG builds.

I also feel you are misunderstanding me or misrepresenting what I said.
I did say going first was almost meaningless.
I also said this;

@Thor665 wrote:
Now, being the first player to inflict significant damage on your opponent? That is pretty darn important.

And really, that's what you're talking about I feel. You're talking about being the first to inflict significant damage. Do you really think that is solely (or even primarily) affected by going first, or is it, as I said, affected by going first, your army, your opponent's army, the board setup, and the threat bubbles?

I stand by what I said, and I think any tourney player who disagrees with me would be one I'd like to play against.

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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 23 2014, 22:53

I hope my tone didn't sound like I would imply you an incompetence.

I do feel going first is solely a reason to get the proper damage output in 40k as it is right now. As you say, turn order wouldn't matter vs board that has lots of BLOS pieces, tons of ruins, and even rolling 1 on strategic traits, with nightfight vs armies that have medicore/regular threat ranges, like SM, or just a combination of the above. But reality is as it is, that there are armies that their outcome from going 1st vs going 2nd is way off the chart. This is especialy true for Imotekh necrons, artillery IG, Serpent Spam and some Tau(luckily just some). No matter the list, I simply don't want to go 2nd vs any from the above. Therefore, as long as those stuff are present, going first does mean alot. I also think this edition still realy favors the one, who strikes first.
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 24 2014, 02:03

There has never been an edition of 40k that didn't favor the one who strikes first.

I get the feeling you have built an army that needs 1st turn to strike first, and that's fine. But I don't think you should confuse the way your army arranges first strike with the way first strike is achieved in general. I know Mush's bike list, for example, does first strike via going second. I have built armies that have used both methods, and will also admit I sometimes change my methodology depending on what I'm fighting.

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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 24 2014, 06:29

First Post WOOOOOO!!!!!


I'm fairly new to Dark Eldar and have been Thinking about Vect myself.

I'm a vet 40k player and have had surprising luck in my first 10 games with dark eldar 8-2 (nobody's more shocked than me). I have found that going first or getting night fight have made games easier. My local meta is very hard core lots of wave serpent spam, taudar, deamon flying circus, mech guard, 2-3 heldrake lists, etc.

I'm going to agree with thor665 in that it's about who deals real damage first not who gets first turn, but I would add that in the CURRENT meta going first helps you do that more than it was in the past.
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 24 2014, 19:27

The mistake is clear: we (most people) assume and associate "going first" with "getting first blood". To be honest I wasn't convinced of Thor's opinion that I shouldn't take Vect just to help ensure that I get first blood but, after that little discussion, I'm convinced that my reasoning was fallacious

I now see Vect's ability to help you go first as highly  situational rather being an 'auto-include'. I go back to something that was pointed out in another thread:  
say for instance that the board is 48". Whoever moves forward with their army first will have the chance to fire first -- that much is clear and is in fact the focus of our reasoning when wanting to go first.

However most opponents will be hiding their units behind as much terrain as possible, so as the first player moves forward, he/she moves out of cover and exposes all of his/her mobile units (such as infantry, Wave Serpents, bikes, etc.) either into range of 36" firepower, or just outside of it, providing you with a great many targets in your movement phase, due to the fact that many Dark Eldar vehicles are Fast, Skimmers (18" move and fire two weapons at normal BS).

On the other hand, if you've hidden your units appropriately, your opponent's weapons shouldn't be able to touch your army (very easily) because they'll be out of line of sight, plus if you have Night Shields on most of your vehicles, a great portion of his/her army is likely out of range.

You could then (in theory) move out of hiding, blast a single unit or vehicle with your Splinter Cannons (two per Venom!) or Dark Lances on your Ravagers.

Of course you might face of against a Dark Angel player with Belial unerringly deep striking at the beginning of his/her first turn, a Drop Pod Space Marine list, a tank-heavy Imperial Guard army -- and so going first on such occasions might be desirable, so again -- it's all situational.

The beauty of taking Vect (and I'd argue: Baron Sathonyx) is that you don't have to roll off to steal the initiative if you don't want to, and you still get to mess with your opponents head if that could work in your favour!

I can't say that I'm not entirely convinced not to take Vect to counter other Alpha Strike armies, but I am now convinced that it's a fallacy to think that going first will always help you take First Blood -- which was the reason why I initially wanted to take him. The way I see it, it's more important to be the first to lure your opponent out of cover and into range of your weapons

Anyways this is all theoryhammer for me, since I'm still in the process of building my army and have yet to play a single game. Feel free to correct me, or express disagreement!

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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 24 2014, 19:51

we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k wrote:
due to the fact that many Dark Eldar vehicles are Fast, Skimmers (18" move and fire two weapons at normal BS).

ok, did i miss a memo here?
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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 24 2014, 21:47

@Axel115 wrote:
we_r_the_4th_wall_in_40k wrote:
due to the fact that many Dark Eldar vehicles are Fast, Skimmers (18" move and fire two weapons at normal BS).

ok, did i miss a memo here?

Nope, it's max 12" move if you want to fire.

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PostSubject: Re: Asdrubael Vect?   Asdrubael Vect? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 24 2014, 21:54

Phew...thought i've been doing it wrong this whole time
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