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Marrath
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PostSubject: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 16 2014, 07:32

I have a few questions:

#1: Is it legal to equip extra weapons like Dark Lances or Blasters on a Dracon for example?
Codex says 4 models can be eqiupped with it, not excluding a Dracon.
But it also says Dracon can change Splinter Pistol for Blast Pistol that could mean he has to have a pistol.

#2: What is a Power Weapon? Can, for example, Djinn Blades be equipped to a Hekatrix?
Because in the Djinn Blade description it says it is a Power Weapon, and in the Hekatrix entry for the Army List it says she can carry a Power Weapon.
The fact that the Djinn Blade is explicitly listed as an option for some HQ units but not Hekatrixes and the like makes me wonder.
Are Djinn Blades, Huskblades etc. Something special?
If so, where are do i draw the line?

[Edit] reread the power weapons part of the BYB.
I understand it so that as soon as it has one or more unique rules it's an unusual power weapon and has to be namely listed as an option for a model/unit, is that correct?

#3: Out of interest, how is counterpicking avoided/dealt with?
Does one player have to "present" his army list first and could the other one pick an army list to counter that?
Do you throw dice to decide who goes first?
Assuming the players have flexible armies and can vary between different lists.
In a tournament, do you register your List at the start?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 16 2014, 09:13

Marrath Schlagschatten wrote:
I have a few questions:

#1: Is it legal to equip extra weapons like Dark Lances or Blasters on a Dracon for example?
Codex says 4 models can be eqiupped with it, not excluding a Dracon.
But it also says Dracon can change Splinter Pistol for Blast Pistol that could mean he has to have a pistol.

Opinion is divided on this one but consensus is that you cannot give upgrades to a model unless the upgrade is allowable to "any model" or to that specific model. In the case of Kabalite Trueborn, options that are available to any model or the Dracon can be given to the Dracon but options that are only available to Kabalite Trueborn cannot.

Quote :
#2: What is a Power Weapon? Can, for example, Djinn Blades be equipped to a Hekatrix?
Because in the Djinn Blade description it says it is a Power Weapon, and in the Hekatrix entry for the Army List it says she can carry a Power Weapon.
The fact that the Djinn Blade is explicitly listed as an option for some HQ units but not Hekatrixes and the like makes me wonder.
Are Djinn Blades, Huskblades etc. Something special?
If so, where are do i draw the line?

[Edit] reread the power weapons part of the BYB.
I understand it so that as soon as it has one or more unique rules it's an unusual power weapon and has to be namely listed as an option for a model/unit, is that correct?

Kind of. Djinn Blade is a specific weapon and as such is only available to models that have it listed as a specific option to them. You cannot take a power weapon and have it as a Djinn Blade. To put it another way, all Djinn Blades are power weapons but not all power weapons are Djinn Blades.

Quote :
#3: Out of interest, how is counterpicking avoided/dealt with?
Does one player have to "present" his army list first and could the other one pick an army list to counter that?
Do you throw dice to decide who goes first?
Assuming the players have flexible armies and can vary between different lists.
In a tournament, do you register your List at the start?

In general lists are chosen by both players in advance of the game. You don't have one player pick his list and then the other picks something to fight against it. This is why it is wise to pick a list that can deal with any opponent rather than specifically designed to take on one army. This is known as list tailoring and is usually frowned on. Certainly in tournaments you will be required to register your list at the start of, or even before, the tournament and will not be allowed to change anything after that time.

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Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff YhBv3Wk
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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 16 2014, 11:08

#1: Once you upgrade a Kabalite Trueborn to be a Dracon, options that are available to Kabalite Trueborn are no longer available (so no to Dark Lances or Blasters in your example).

The only options for 'Any model' are exchanging splinter rifle for Splinter pistol and close combat weapon or Shardcarbine.
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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 16 2014, 18:18

Thank you very much Smile

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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 12 2014, 22:21

I have another question:
Can you equip 2 close combat weapons and a "both-handed gun" on non unique HQs?
For example a close combat weapon, a Djinn-Blade and a Blaster on an Archon?
Can't find anything that says i couldn't and the
"can replace CC weapon and/or Splinter Weapon with:..."
/
"can get:..."
parts seem to be very liberal.
But i'm not sure.

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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 07:22

It's saying you can replace both weapons with something from the choices you have, none, or keep one and upgrade the other. You can't have 3 weapons on one dude. Even on a haemy. This is even stated in the brb. He can have arcane gear and weapons. Not to be disrespectful but it seems as though you are trying to exploit the simple literature. It says, and or, meaning one or both. Not one, both and one more. If you build a decent list and play it right you shouldn't have to rely on rules as written shenanigans. Just IMHO. Once again, no disrespect intended. Our army relies more heavily on its bulk part of the list anyway. The HQ's are more of a bonus to me. You want to cheese out army out read up on beast packs and eldar allies. That's serious crazy cheese.

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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 08:10

Marrath Schlagschatten wrote:
I have another question:
Can you equip 2 close combat weapons and a "both-handed gun" on non unique HQs?
For example a close combat weapon, a Djinn-Blade and a Blaster on an Archon?
Can't find anything that says i couldn't and the
"can replace CC weapon and/or Splinter Weapon with:..."
/
"can get:..."
parts seem to be very liberal.
But i'm not sure.
Contrary to some advice, the wargear combo you've listed is quite legal. Weapon limits are usually a result Of having to swap existing weapons. The Djinn Blade is an exception to this as it can be taken without needing to swap anything for it.
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deep-sea-captain
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 10:02

Yeah,the above is correct. The Djin Blade is wargear, not a weapon option, you can just purchase it, you don't need to swap anything out for it. I typically swap my CCW out for a blaster and then take the Djin blade as wargear, this way I still get bonus attack for to CCW and I get to have a blaster!
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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 11:28

Sorry. It seems i have worded my question poorly.
The Arcane Wargear Djinnblade is probably legal.
But does the blaster, being no pistol but a two handed gun, replace pistol and CC-weapon?
Disallowing me to pick a Huskblade or other CC-weapons that are not arcane wargear?
The equipment text(see above) in the army list is different from Sybarites for example so i think it should work but i wanna be sure.

@Doomseer11b: Contrary to my signature i actually intend to play this for fun and not competitively.
It would just be stylish to have an archon shooting his blaster with one hand like an action hero.
No hard feelings  Cool 
Could you give me a page number for what it says about 3 weapons in the brb?

Edit: I only have the BYB. So a page for that would be helpful.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 11:52

Marrath Schlagschatten wrote:
But does the blaster, being no pistol but a two handed gun, replace pistol and CC-weapon?

No. It still only replaces one or the other. Indeed, you could replace both with 2 blasters if you wanted, although you'd only be allowed to use one.

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Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff YhBv3Wk
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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 11:57

Also, as far as I am aware, there is no rule banning 3 (Or more) weapons On 1 model. If it were the case, many units and unit Options would be illegal (e.g. Buying CCWs for Chaos Space Marines)
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 12:27

The wording of the option is "Replace close combat weapon and/pr splinter pistol with:"
So you pick either the close combat weapon or the pistol, and you replace it with a Blaster. You can then take the other, and replace it with something else.
So you could replace the close combat weapon with a Blaster, and the pistol with a Husk Blade (or something else).
Wargear doesn't need to replace anything, so you could in theory take the ENTIRE list of Wargear (if you were really silly and had the points spare (?!).


I will also briefly chime in on your original first question as well.
I know some people disagree, but you CAN'T give the Dracon the weapon choices you ask about.
In the example you give, with Trueborn and the Dracon, it has some fairly clear terminology. Any MODEL, can take a Shardcarbine for 5pts for example. A Dracon could. But it clearly says on a Trueborn can take the Shredder, or Blaster, etc. When a Trueborn is upgraded to a Dracon, he is no longer a "Kabalite Trueborn", as he's a unique model with his own stat-line. Although he's still part of the unit, that unique stat-line sets him apart from the other Trueborn, so he no longer technically counts as "Trueborn" so doesn't get the options on listed as being available to Kabalite Trueborn.
It's the distinction between upgrade entries that say "Any Blahblah may take..." and "Any MODEL may take....." or "Any member of the unit may take...."

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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 12:34

@Squidmaster wrote:
The wording of the option is "Replace close combat weapon and/pr splinter pistol with:"
So you pick either the close combat weapon or the pistol, and you replace it with a Blaster. You can then take the other, and replace it with something else.
So you could replace the close combat weapon with a Blaster, and the pistol with a Husk Blade (or something else).
Wargear doesn't need to replace anything, so you could in theory take the ENTIRE list of Wargear (if you were really silly and had the points spare (?!).

You can't quite take the entire list. Shadow fields and Clone fields can't be taken together.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 12:34

@Dra'al Nacht wrote:
@Squidmaster wrote:
The wording of the option is "Replace close combat weapon and/pr splinter pistol with:"
So you pick either the close combat weapon or the pistol, and you replace it with a Blaster. You can then take the other, and replace it with something else.
So you could replace the close combat weapon with a Blaster, and the pistol with a Husk Blade (or something else).
Wargear doesn't need to replace anything, so you could in theory take the ENTIRE list of Wargear (if you were really silly and had the points spare (?!).

You can't quite take the entire list. Shadow fields and Clone fields can't be taken together.

Ok, one exception. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 12:40

This is interesting as I've always read the "Replace close combat weapon and/or splinter pistol" to mean that if you are taking a one handed item such as a venom blade you have the option of replacing 1 or 2 of them but the "and" in the "and/or" was there to mean that a two handed weapon required swapping of both.

I.e. replace close combat weapon and splinter pistol with a blaster.

Luckily you've illuminated by life just as I am stuck with my archon conversion sans arms.... Excellent....


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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 12:42

@Squidmaster wrote:
I will also briefly chime in on your original first question as well.
I know some people disagree, but you CAN'T give the Dracon the weapon choices you ask about.

Let's not get into this again. Plenty of discussions on the issue here and on many other forums with no real resolution other than opinions. The most anyone can say with certainty is that there is general agreement that you should not do it. Ruleswise, it's still pretty much undecided.

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Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff YhBv3Wk
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 12:58

@Dragontree wrote:
This is interesting as I've always read the "Replace close combat weapon and/or splinter pistol" to mean that if you are taking a one handed item such as a venom blade you have the option of replacing 1 or 2 of them but the "and" in the "and/or" was there to mean that a two handed weapon required swapping of both.

I.e. replace close combat weapon and splinter pistol with a blaster.

Luckily you've illuminated by life just as I am stuck with my archon conversion sans arms.... Excellent....


Yeah, the Only 'two handed weapons' are particular CCWs and this has no bearing upon how many weapons you can take, just how many you can use in Assault.



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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 19:58

True either way, you can't hit with a huskblade and a venom blade and combine the 2 effects.  I misunderstood some of this the first time.  When I said you can't hae more than one weapon at a time, the example I just said is what I was referring too.  Also, you can't have more than a +1 to attack for the charge even if you have multiple arms and weapons (excluding USR rage).  This is where I thought the OA was going with this. Apologies for stupidity Razz

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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff   Unit leaders and special weapons and other random stuff I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 13 2014, 22:47

Alrighty then!
So i'm going to replace my Archon's pistol with the Blaster, replace the CC weapon with a Husk Blade as main weapon, put a Djinnblade on my Archon for +1 attack for 2nd CC weapon!
Could be funny!
I'll probably put the djinn blade on the blaster in form of a bajonet or turn it into some kind of blaster-djinn-blade  Cool
Thank you very much!

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