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AtelierPhaaze
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PostSubject: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 03:43

Can Reavers move their 2d6" in the assault phase if they have fired in the shooting phase?

Edit: I realize this should be in the rules section but I wasn't paying attention to what tab I had selected when I made this post. Can't seem to delete it either so I can manually move it.
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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 06:19

Ofcource
this is rule of eldar jetbike

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 07:11

Moved it to rules for you.

And the answer is yes, they can.
Relevant rule is on Page 45 of the BYB in the inset about jetbikes.

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AtelierPhaaze
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 07:39

Only really mentions that they can still do that move after deep striking or even if they decided not to charge. No mention of shooting, but then it doesn't say they can't so...

Thanks for moving it.

Never really had to deal with vehicles before as the only army I played before DE was nids, trying to get as much clarification as I can.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 08:55

Reavers aren't vehicles. They're a unit type in the same way that Infantry, Monstrous Creature, Beast etc is.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 15:17

@AtelierPhaaze wrote:
Only really mentions that they can still do that move after deep striking or even if they decided not to charge. No mention of shooting, but then it doesn't say they can't so...
It says specifically that they can do the move. It doesn't then clarify that they cannot do the move if they shot, so...

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AtelierPhaaze
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 16:01

I did say vehicles didn't I, whoops. Regardless I haven't exactly dealt with bikes before either, only one of my friends has bikes and they aren't the hover kind that the eldar's are (he plays orks). It is interesting to know that I can move that 2d6 after shooting though. Even the FAQ doesn't mention anything about it either.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 16:11

The FAQ doesn't address issues like that. You have a rule that says you can do something. Unless there is another rule that says you cannot do that in a given situation then you can. No FAQ is needed.

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Mngwa
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 16:16

Can move after shooting, thats why it gives them the whole new tactical element of "appear, fire, disappear" that can make them very annoying to the opponent.
You just cant do it after turboboosting though, that way they could move potentially over 50 inches in one turn!
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 16:34

@AtelierPhaaze wrote:
I did say vehicles didn't I, whoops. Regardless I haven't exactly dealt with bikes before either, only one of my friends has bikes and they aren't the hover kind that the eldar's are (he plays orks). It is interesting to know that I can move that 2d6 after shooting though. Even the FAQ doesn't mention anything about it either.
The FAQ also fails to clarify that you can assault after shooting assault weapons. The rulebook under 'Assault' says you can't do it if you shot other types of weapons, but doesn't say you can do it if you shot assault weapons. It also doesn't say you can do it if you didn't shoot at all.

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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 15 2014, 22:26

@Mngwa wrote:
Can move after shooting, thats why it gives them the whole new tactical element of "appear, fire, disappear" that can make them very annoying to the opponent.
You just cant do it after turboboosting though, that way they could move potentially over 50 inches in one turn!

This is what I have always thought, but today in a league game the judge told me that they could and we reviewed the rules.

Basic rule is no voluntary actions after turbo boosting, but in the eldar jetbike section is says "in addition to following all the rules for jetbikes it can move 2D6" in the assault phase even if they don't charge and even if they arrive by deep strike." They take it to mean that since it says "in addition" then "it can" that supercedes the base rule.

I like their interpretation.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 00:12

@Nappen wrote:
@Mngwa wrote:
Can move after shooting, thats why it gives them the whole new tactical element of "appear, fire, disappear" that can make them very annoying to the opponent.
You just cant do it after turboboosting though, that way they could move potentially over 50 inches in one turn!

This is what I have always thought, but today in a league game the judge told me that they could and we reviewed the rules.

Basic rule is no voluntary actions after turbo boosting, but in the eldar jetbike section is says "in addition to following all the rules for jetbikes it can move 2D6" in the assault phase even if they don't charge and even if they arrive by deep strike." They take it to mean that since it says "in addition" then "it can" that supercedes the base rule.

I like their interpretation.

I'm sure we'd all like their interpretation. Doesn't alter the fact that they're wrong though.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 00:18

Zing!

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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 04:39

Wait... I have always played you COULD do this. It's a special rule for eldar/de jetbikes only. I take it I'm wrong in thinking this.

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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 05:18

I agree: I also believe it is wrong, but would any of you dislike it, if it was true.

Really though, the reasoning is not bad. The special rule overides the main rule. Of course, the way I always interpreted it was, the didn't say after turbo boost anywhere, so it wasn't included.
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deep-sea-captain
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 06:34

In addition to all the rules for jetbikes. Not all the rules for vehicles. Not moving after turboboosting/moving flat out is more then just a jetbike move, other bikes and vehicles can do it. The jetbikes rules don't say they stop following the restrictions on other vehicles. And just because it doesn't say you can't do something it doesn't mean you can.

More importantly, why do you want to additionally 2D6 move after turboboosting? Sure I guess it would be handy, but our turbo boost is huge, like, HUGE, you rarely need more movement, you can basically just place them where you want on the board.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 06:41

@Nappen wrote:
Really though, the reasoning is not bad. The special rule overides the main rule.
Eh... Eldar Jetbike rule gives them an option, they "may" elect to take extra movement.
Turbo-boosting denies them "voluntary actions"

I'm pretty sure something you may do, (and, consequently, may not do) is pretty much the specific definition of a 'voluntary action'. Especially when the same batch of rules then also includes information about what they can do if they turbo-boost - pretty much specifying that they are an either/or thing.

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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 06:49

So what's our ruling on this?

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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 15:47

I think the consensus is no. Which I agree with, but it is good to look at both sides.

If you take it as written and in sequence (and remember this is GW rules Wink ) it would be...

1) Follow all jetbike rules so no voluntary action after turbo boost.

2) in addition to the above rule eldar jetbikes can move 2D6" in the assault phase.

I believe it is the sequencing and additive property they are using-translating to if you are a jetbike you can't move after turbo boost, but if you are a eldar jetbike you have the additional ability to move in the assault phase.

I read it as you have the additional ability to move in the assault phase, however, if you turbo-boosted you can't, because you can't make a voluntary action.

Like I said, I think you can't, but I can admit I can understand their reasoning for thinking you can.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 16 2014, 16:31

The order presented above is fine.

The part I can't wrap my head around is deciding that an additional rule somehow negates that it's a voluntary action. By definition you choose whether you do it or not - therefore it is voluntary. Now, if the rule read "must take a 2d6 move in the assault phase" then I would agree with the idea that, yes, it would happen whether you turbo-boosted or not.

I totally disagree with their ruling and see no way to justify it.

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 28 2014, 21:46

I think the judges in question's justification has been explained if you read this whole thread. It makes very little difference after our enormous turbo-boost movement, and I suspect they just wanted to keep the game moving. Not that I agree with this form of permissive pacification, but it does happen.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 02 2014, 07:49

I think judges should have at least tought about permitting a unit to move up to 60" a turn.
With a units like Seer Councile on board, i highly doubt judges were really in their element.

I dont remember, could super-sonic flyers move at that pace?

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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 13 2014, 15:38

It wasn't to keep the game moving, I was playing against one of them and they asked "are you going to do an assault move?" I told them I couldn't because of the turbo boost and that is how the discussion started. I am the only eldar or dark eldar player in the league, so there is no advantage to anyone but me. I think that is just how they read the rules and the league has been very beginner friendly and they are making every effort to keep it fun and not WAAC.

As I have gotten to know them, I believe they genuinely want everyone to have every advantage and not miss out on any options in their armies, particularly to help new guys get started in the game-and it has worked, the league has grown to over 40 players.

Doesn't change the fact that they are wrong about the rule and I still don't play it that way, even though they say I can...I just don't make issue of it and elect not to do it....though...next game against a rules judge.... Twisted Evil
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thenick18
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 21 2014, 23:18

The way I look at it is, after turbo boosting, you cannot do anything in the assault phase. Once you have turbo boosted, you give up the ability to do any further action with the unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver assault movement after shooting   Reaver assault movement after shooting I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 28 2014, 14:38

Hm, here is another one, to think of it: The german rulebook declares, that the eldar jetbike can always move 2D6 in the assault phase.
Which makes sense, when you think of it. You put the pedal down, you accelerate. Get your foot off the pedal,
you deccelerate, but you are still moving. If it would be pure logic, the jetbike should even move more than 2D6 after turboboosting.

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