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 Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?

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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 13 2014, 19:49

I love playing my Dark Eldar army and have a better winning streak with it than my Necrons or Orks. While we are not a truly resilient army, we are a powerful one.

My question is why do we not see more DE at larger tournaments or place higher in general? What is keeping DE from being considered a truly top tier army?
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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 13 2014, 20:02

The insanity of the current meta would be my guess.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 13 2014, 20:06

DE are not seen often at the top of tournaments for a couple reasons. They are underrepresented, and by sheer luck alone, you will not see many in the top. The other issue is that they are a glass cannon that really has issues going second, so again with luck if you dont often get first the DE really suffer. Finally they have a couple really bad matchups, and one of their bad matchups, eldar, are big in the tournament scene.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 13 2014, 20:34

They are reasonably well-represented in the Vancouver area, in terms of general play and perhaps even more so in tournaments. And for the past 2-3 years, they have often been at or near the top of local tournie results.

No thanks to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 13 2014, 20:38

From my experience, because I tend to see a lot of Tau at events, and there is next to nothing we (or at least I) can do against them.
Tau once tabled me in turn two. For reals.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 13 2014, 20:40

I have to disagree on the going second theory stated above.  I often opt to go second and usually win because of it.  If you lose going second it is purely your deployment that must be hurting you.  Going second allows us to negate much of our opponents first turn shooting if placed properly (with few exceptions: barrage and tables that don't have much terrain).  

I think we suffer in representation because we are a really hard army to win consistently with.  Most tourney players like to write lists that play themselves not the other way around.  Someone also made an astute observation in another thread, playing dark eldar requires you to play the player more than the army itself.  Broadside tau lists require no thought or tactics and most of the time they win.... If not all the time.  

So to all the archons here that religiously play DE I say congrats, you play an army that requires thought and outside the box thinking.  If I may be so bold to say dark eldar IMHO are definitely top 2 hardest armies to be effective with if not the hardest. But I agree with Thor, tau and eldar are just too cheesy for us to deal with. Especially tau..... I have a special place of hatred for tau in my heart. I did well playing them when they first came out but the broadside spam and riptide spam is really disheartening.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 13 2014, 22:32

I wouldn't say that it -has- to be deployment that's hurting you going second. Sometimes deploying fully out of LOS/Range isn't an option depending on opposing army and the terrain on the table, as you say. There's also such things as heavy drop pod armies that we can try to mitigate, but are tricky to counter outright.

I think a big part of the problem is that a dark eldar on foot is generally a dead dark eldar. Paper thin transports are a large part of the problem. The OTHER large piece is the ridiculous ease with which some armies get ignores cover - Eldar and Tau have it in spades, CSM can get it easily (noise marines, but more commonly helldrakes), Space Marines can get it, anything that vector strikes I believe ignores cover? (May be wrong on that - will have to check). And given our vehicles are such an odd shape...

Shock value is a reason I find my DE do well. DE aren't a hugely represented force in 40k (I think DE and Sisters are probably the 2 least common armies) and as a result people don't play them much, and consequently don't know how best to fight against them. I've won games purely because people rarely face Dark Eldar, and by the time they figure out what to do they've been crippled.

Really though I just think that DE have comparatively few 'great' matchups, but a lot of 'weak' matchups when it comes to the other side of the table. The only army I can think of that I'm confident against more than 60% of the time is Grey Knights, as we outspeed and outrange them. I would say Nidzilla but with a new Tyranid codex literally just out it doesn't seem fair to make any claims on that yet - I think it comes down to how fast you can put down Tervigons (if they're still good).

I would argue that the 3 hardest armies to play at this point in time are:

Dark Eldar because of our fragility and unforgiving nature (I've lost games because of errors that I'd likely have won if I'd made an equivalent-scale error with a different force)

Blood Angels due to age of codex, army-wide overcosting, and the lack of a star unit to make up for it (Orks and SW are also showing their age, but Orks have Lootas, dakkajets, biker nobz and numbers, SW have grey hunters and rune priests)

'Fair' Daemon builds (fair here meaning anything that doesn't rely on a 2++ re-rollable deathstar) due to the random and unpredictable nature of the codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 03:13

^^^ no mention of templars?

was the oldest codex around untill recently, then got rolled into a mediocre at best codex, and to rub salt into wounds they were given the worst chapter tactics of said mediocre codex.

anyways, i dont think DE are in that hard of a place and can be very potent, compared to other Dex' anyways
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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 03:19

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
I would argue that the 3 hardest armies to play at this point in time are:

Dark Eldar because of our fragility and unforgiving nature (I've lost games because of errors that I'd likely have won if I'd made an equivalent-scale error with a different force)

Blood Angels due to age of codex, army-wide overcosting, and the lack of a star unit to make up for it (Orks and SW are also showing their age, but Orks have Lootas, dakkajets, biker nobz and numbers, SW have grey hunters and rune priests)

'Fair' Daemon builds (fair here meaning anything that doesn't rely on a 2++ re-rollable deathstar) due to the random and unpredictable nature of the codex.

I thought sisters would be hard to play now

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 07:03

Tau and eldar are a huge problem for everyone right now.  And as for CSM....  Yeah they have heldrakes but the rest of the army is terrible IMHO.  I have CSM player in my meta that has completely abandoned ship because they are just too expensive for what they offer.  Either way, deployment is key to winning any battle, once again, IMHO.  For dark eldar it's soooooo much more vital that we be smart in our placement.  Not to be disrespectful but if you're having troubles with drop pod lists then you're really not thinking about how fast and maneuverable we really are.  When facing a drop pod list I FILL the backfield with all vehicles and troops with all of my occupants outside their vehicles easily able to embark my first turn.  I eliminate the ability to get inside my ranks and give target saturation by doing this.  Yes thy may get a few units with Flamers or what have you but for the most part they will only get 1 or 2 vehicles at best and 1 or 2 units.  Then everyone piles back into their respective vehicles and move 12" then turbo 18" completely of not mostly negating those units for a good portion of the rest of the game.  In my meta drop pods are all but gone due to the I effectiveness of them.  If units were able to assault out of them then I may have issues but I welcome WHOLE HEARTEDLY all drop pod lists.  With white scars now, they put pressure on as much if not more than we do first turn.  Scout is a mfr.  however I combat this once again with starting my troops outside the vehicles.  If they shoot the vehicles (venoms mostly) then they get assaulted, if they shoot the troops them my venoms come out unscathed.  Also, having the troops out front confers a cover save.  First turn is make or break for us, so deployment is key to winning any of our games.  Save against tau and eldar obviously.  I haven't come up with a good strategy against either yet.  Tau is just broken IMHO.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 11:11

@theredone wrote:
^^^ no mention of templars?

was the oldest codex around untill recently, then got rolled into a mediocre at best codex, and to rub salt into wounds they were given the worst chapter tactics of said mediocre codex.

anyways, i dont think DE are in that hard of a place and can be very potent, compared to other Dex' anyways

Since they got rolled into SM, I didn't feel like it was fair to count them separately; was going by overall codex strength. Even so, they're still pretty potent and have the general 'forgiving' nature of marines based on resiliency (BA make the list as, as I know from painful experience, they just can't bring the numbers that any other marine army can)

@Elzadar - not seen the sisters codex and not seen it in action enough to comment.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 14:31

Actually I think the Ork codex is older than the Templar codex but it's been a bit since I looked at the templars. I would also put Sisters in the top 2 for hardest to play since they don't have a lot of options in a number of FOC slots.

Regardless, it's good to better understand why DE isn't seen as much. I don't get out to the tournaments as often as I'd like and hearing people's views is helping.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 16:05

@doomseer11b wrote:
Tau is just broken IMHO.

Tau is a bad matchup against Dark Eldar, but the codex is pretty well balanced to be honest. You just need to know how to beat them, and put terrain to your advantage.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2014, 23:01

@Elzadar wrote:
@doomseer11b wrote:
Tau is just broken IMHO.

Tau is a bad matchup against Dark Eldar, but the codex is pretty well balanced to be honest. You just need to know how to beat them, and put terrain to your advantage.

The tau have been traditionally very weak when assaulted, which is very hard to do in this edition. While the codex itself is balanced the rule set isn't. Plus when playing on planet bowling ball, which seems to be the most contested planet in the imperium in my area, tau are practically unbeatable.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15 2014, 00:32

From what I have read and heard ppl think 6th ed was very unkind to DE particularly the transport deathtrap thing. Also "DE are too fragile to compete" is a common saying.

I think ppl underestimate DE which is to our advantage. Tau and eldar are the only armies that worry me. God I hate their ignore cover BS!!

That being said Frankie over at Frontline challenges all comers with his DE/eldar and has only lost once I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15 2014, 00:34

I think it may be good to take flickerfields again for those complaining about ignore cover

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15 2014, 00:39

if "ignores cover" worries ppl that much, would it not be worth the 30+ points to FF your ravagers and whatever raiders you might have? hellps also for the "DE is crap if they dont get first turn" thing too Smile

EDIT: woop, beaten to it Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15 2014, 01:40

Tau and well balanced in the same sentence? Obviously you haven't seen the power builds they have. 3 units of broadsides with the missile pods that ignore cover and don't need LOS????? AND I believe they're S8?!?!? Good luck dealing with that. Each unit gets like 60 shots it's ridiculous. I may be off on how many shots but I know its ridiculous. You use that with a commander outfit for support only..... Done son. Not to mention all these ridiculous updates they keep giving them. And tradition doesn't matter. This edition is completely different than any other. I'm speaking in reference to elzadar, I apologize my phone is on the fritz and won't let me quote.

The only saving grace we have is to take out the commander (still have to deal with broadsides) and then if that happens and that's a BIG IF generally they start to unravel. But T5 SV2 FNP and 4+ invul with a 2+ look out is REALLY HARD to deal with. I hate to be a nay sayer but I just don't see how a power list can be beaten

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15 2014, 02:49

@doomseer11b wrote:
Tau and well balanced in the same sentence?  Obviously you haven't seen the power builds they have.  3 units of broadsides with the missile pods that ignore cover and don't need LOS?????  AND I believe they're S8?!?!?  Good luck dealing with that.  Each unit gets like 60 shots it's ridiculous.  I may be off on how many shots but I know its ridiculous.  You use that with a commander outfit for support only.....  Done son.  Not to mention all these ridiculous updates they keep giving them.  And tradition doesn't matter.  This edition is completely different than any other.  I'm speaking in reference to elzadar, I apologize my phone is on the fritz and won't let me quote.  

The only saving grace we have is to take out the commander (still have to deal with broadsides) and then if that happens and that's a BIG IF generally they start to unravel.  But T5 SV2 FNP and 4+ invul with a 2+ look out is REALLY HARD to deal with.  I hate to be a nay sayer but I just don't see how a power list can be beaten

You got your stats wrong on the broadsides mate. Their railguns, that used to be strength 10, have now become strength 8, and their high-yield missile pods are strength 7, don't ignore cover and need LOS. Now you can make them ignore cover by using markerlights (which the tau really need seeing how they cannot use assaulting to ignore cover), but the units with markerlights are either extremely fragile(I'm talking DE fragile here) or require a very large point investment. Taking the markerlights out instead of the broadsides should make them a lot less effective. Also the smart missile system you can give them that does ignore cover and can fire without LOS is only strength 5. Which gives them hardly more damage output than Venoms do.

The broadsides are in the meantime very immobile, and the missile variants lack the sufficient range to threaten a large part of the board. As a Dark Eldar player you should be able to avoid them, destroy their markerlight support or tie them up in assault.


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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15 2014, 03:32

Because we're not space marines?

Aside from that I imagine because it's a very unforgiving army.

We pay for our troops like they're elite, when their as fragile as a guardsmen. It's the initiative and weaponskill tax. Which hardly benefits us in this shooty edition.

The highest armor value in our book, barring Vect's pimp boat, is 11. All of our vehicles are open topped. Strength five weapons can penetrate our transports and make them explode on a five. When a rhino explodes, Oh gods no, I might lose one spesss marine. But when a boat explodes, you'll lose 50% of the squad inside.

If you touch us, we break, that's all there is to it. And if you can't be bothered to worry about cover saves, acceptable losses, and losing entire squads with one tactical mistake, then you can't be bothered to play Dark Eldar.

Edit: Just realized the question was about events and basically the reason you don't see Dark Eldar at the top is we're not Tau or Eldar. When our new codex comes out, if we get the Eldar treatment, then everyone will be playing them. Which would make me kind of sad honestly.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15 2014, 11:00

I've been using flickerfields instead of night shields on my vehicles for ages, primarily because anything with a long enough range to cause our armour problems outranges the vehicle anyway, and if we're going second there's a pretty good chance they can just move into range. Especially on a ravager, which has an effective threat range of 48" (Move 12, fire 36") when most dedicated anti-armour weaponry has 48" range or thereabouts (Missile Launchers, Lascannons, etc.) so either way the opponent still gets the first shot.

The point is that Ignores Cover doesn't just do a number on our vehicles, but also anything caught outside said vehicles. With *checks* precisely two exceptions, our units have nothing better than 5+ saves. Almost any army's standard infantry gun is AP5. So anything -inside- a vehicle is in a deathtrap when it explodes; anything -outside- is doomed to take hits. And since most gaming clubs don't have huge amounts of LOS blocking terrain... My LGC has tons of nice terrain, some really cool sets, but a) a lot of the time it's not enough for 6th edition and b) it's VERY sparse for straight up LOS blocking (some sets have none at all that I can hide behind).

@elzadar and doomseer - I've seen a tau list that ran 3 maxed broadside squads with missile pods, each with missile drones, 3 squads of pathfinders (one to light up a target for each broadside squad), 2 fire warrior teams for mandatory troops, and an ethereal to dish out buffs. All bunkered behind an Aegis defence line. I don't think any of his opponents had fun.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15 2014, 12:58

@theredone wrote:
^^^ no mention of templars?

was the oldest codex around untill recently, then got rolled into a mediocre at best codex, and to rub salt into wounds they were given the worst chapter tactics of said mediocre codex.

anyways, i dont think DE are in that hard of a place and can be very potent, compared to other Dex' anyways

As a Templar Player, you hit the nail on the head, so to speak.

Still I think it mainly has to do with the fact that we are pretty much a paper dragon. Hit hard and win, or die in a very painful way.
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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15 2014, 13:06

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
@elzadar and doomseer - I've seen a tau list that ran 3 maxed broadside squads with missile pods, each with missile drones, 3 squads of pathfinders (one to light up a target for each broadside squad), 2 fire warrior teams for mandatory troops, and an ethereal to dish out buffs. All bunkered behind an Aegis defence line. I don't think any of his opponents had fun.

not very fun to play with or against I imagine. However that should be easy to beat in most cases. Just take out the fire warriors

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15 2014, 13:25

Dark Eldar are not on top tables a lot because they are so unforgiving.
More than any other army out there, Dark Eldar are the hardest army to play, hands down.

HOWEVER... that being said, Dark Eldar when played correctly are almost unstoppable.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is Dark Eldar not seen more?   Why is Dark Eldar not seen more? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 15 2014, 14:04

@Elzadar wrote:
@Panic_Puppet wrote:
@elzadar and doomseer - I've seen a tau list that ran 3 maxed broadside squads with missile pods, each with missile drones, 3 squads of pathfinders (one to light up a target for each broadside squad), 2 fire warrior teams for mandatory troops, and an ethereal to dish out buffs. All bunkered behind an Aegis defence line. I don't think any of his opponents had fun.

not very fun to play with or against I imagine. However that should be easy to beat in most cases. Just take out the fire warriors

As I recall, it didn't actually play the game, it played to table. I'd still rather play it than triptide tau or loophole abuse tau. FWs are also pretty hard to drop when they're effectively terminators (2+ go to ground behind an ADL).
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