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Otto Weston
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Otto Weston

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PostSubject: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 05 2014, 22:41

Basically I want a low point DE army and want to go with a Coven theme based around getting in a flyer at 500pts.

Because of the significant investment of points for the flyer (165 pts), I need to work to avoid being tabled with the rest of my army, therefore I'm aiming to make it as tough as possible to hold out for the incoming flyer.

Here is my current DE 500pt List but I'm looking for help choosing whether to keep the Talos or Change it out for a full Squad of Wracks.

Haemonculus
Liquifier
Hexrifle
75pts

Wracks x8
Liquifier Gun
90pts

Kabalite Warriors x5
Blaster
60pts

Talos Pain Engine
Twin-Linked Liquifier
Twin-Linked Haywire
110pts

Razorwing Jetfighter
Splinter Cannon
FlickerField
165pts


For a 500 pt game, I was wondering what would survive longer/ be harder to eliminate?
10 Troop Wracks with a Liquifier for 110pts (How I see it, they're troops so can help with objectives, they have FNP saves from the get-go and have a total of 10 wounds)
1 Talos Pain Engine with Twin-Linked Liquifiers and Twin-Linked Haywires for 110pts (Non Troops but it's AT and I'm heavily lacking in AT, it's only 3 wounds but with a high toughness)

So what do you guys think? Which would be tougher and complement my army the most? The Talos or the Wracks?

Or do you have any other suggestions that could help?

Thanks in Advance
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ligolski
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ligolski

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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 05 2014, 23:02

personally I'd really advise against the flyer but if you are dead set on it then we will help you get to something good no matter! Smile

I personally love the Talos, its great. At 500 pt games I can understand why you would take the haywires on the talos, but personally I prefer the splinter cannon as it goes better with that liquifier!

If you switch the talos to splinter cannons then I would replace the warriors with 5 wyches and give them haywire grenades. They will wreck any tank.

From here lets examine the wrack squad...its really large which is good and bad. I've never played a 500pt game so its tough for me to say how sizing should go. Personally I think you would be better off with 2 squads of 4 for target saturation and objective capturing purposes.

Cheers,
ligs

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Otto Weston
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Otto Weston

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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 05 2014, 23:34

Yeah, I basically wanted to base this entire 500pt army around the flyer, even if it isn't really good.

Mmmm I'd probably have to use Count-as for the Wyches (don't like the models), but if it's better at complementing a Talos I'd be happy to.

Basically, I'm trying to go all out, and survive till the Flyer comes in and powns xD.
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GKP
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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 05 2014, 23:40

Okay, this is kinda me thinking aloud here, so bear with me. Is there anything stopping you from putting two squads of 4 Wracks in Venoms, dropping the Talos, and dropping the Kabalites? At 500, I doubt you are going to be seeing more than one vehicle, and having those two Venoms with Splinter Cannons will help you clean up any not meched units. Once the Razorwing comes in, it shouldn't be all that difficult to pop one tank, (I'm going off Space Marines here, and unless things have changed, I doubt you'll see more than a Razorback, if even that.)

This seems to me like a very Dark Eldar kind of list. Huge damage potential, but dangerous as hell to use. If you are really worried about AT, I'd drop the the Hexrifle, and pick up a Dark Gate, for the Haemy. So, that would give you:

Haemonculus 85
Liquifier
Dark Gate

Wracks x4
Venom 65
Splinter Cannon

Wracks x4
Venom 65
Splinter Cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter 165


That leaves you with about 40 points to get wargear, or to add Wracks here and there. Its risky, but seems like it would be fun, and very Dark Eldar to play.
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Otto Weston
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Otto Weston

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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 06 2014, 01:25

Thanks for the suggestion GKP, but I kinda wanna go foot-slog tough, working with a Fighter.

Actually, I've been toying with the following list with a Grotesque squad as a mini-deathstar.

Haemonculus Ancient
Venom Blade
Liquifier
Hexrifle
110pts

Wracks x4
40pts

Wracks x3
30pts

Grotesques x4
Aberration
Venom Blade
155pts

Razorwing Jetfighter
Splinter Cannon
FlickerField
165pts

The Haemo ancient would go with the Grotesques, becoming a 15 wound squad with FNP, Furious Charge, 21 attacks on the charge - 9 of which are poisoned. The Haemo can also plink away with the Hexrifle whilst moving to engagement range and use the Liquifier before the charge.

During this time, the two Wracks squads would try to not attract attention / sit on objectives.

I'm actually quite liking this idea... would anyone care to comment about that as well?
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GKP
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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 06 2014, 04:09

I like it, but I'd like it more if the Grots were guaranteed to get into CC. Keep in mind, with FNP, its only a bit better than the Grots Normal Save. If I were playing you, i'd focus the grots down, easy enough. With this list, until the Razorwing comes in, all you have for range is the Hexrifle. You have literally no way to kill anything, except for the Razorwing. So it really comes down to terrain, and lucky dice here. FNP does have a broader range of use now, even though the save is worse than 5th ed. Here is my indepth analysis, with some Mathhammer, (very informal) at the end.

So, it comes down to how much killing the Razorwing can do, and whether or not the Grots even make it into combat.

Let’s compare to this 500 point Marine list that I borrowed from the B&C.

Librarian w/ Terminator Armor, Storm Shield, Power Axe, Gate of Infinity and another power

I know nothing about Libby's, so I'll leave this be for now.

10 Tac Marines w/ Plasmagun, Multi-Melta/Missile Launcher
Okay, assume Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher. At 24 Inches, these guys put out 8 S4 shots, 1 S7 Shot, and 1 S8 shot. If I were playing this, I'd focus this squad on your Grots. I'd put the Libby on them too, until the Razorwing came in. Once you get within Charge Range, the number of shots double. In my opinion, even the Toughness 5 won't save you here.

5 Scouts w/ Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks
I'd probably put these guys on a squad of Wracks, and just plink away until you start failing saves.

Land Speeder w/ H. Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher
Until the Razorwing comes in, this thing is gonna zip up to bolter range of the second Wrack squad, and just light them up. With only four Wracks, I might even go so far as to say they would go down in one turn.

Now, assuming that the Grot Squad makes it, the Marines are going down pretty quick, hopefully. But I'd most likely spread out, so even if you finish the marines, (and consider that the Libby has termie armor) The Grots are still looking at a lot of ground to cover, to get to the other units.

Once your Razorwing comes in, you're a little better off, but, if I focused the Grots, I am now free to put a bunch of bolter shots, and plasma and missiles, into the Razorwing. It doesn't take much to kill our flier, even with 6s needed. Now, if I did wipe the Wracks with the Landspeeder, you’ve got a problem.

If the Marines survive, (which, I believe they will.) and the Landspeeder survives, which it will, you have to choose which one to take out with the Razorwing, and you can only take out one per turn.

Now, and I apologize for the rather disorganized way this is formatted, I took the liberty of rolling a few things out, using a d6 dice roller.
This is Marines vs. Grots, turn 1.
Hitting on 3’s, wounding on 5’s, for Bolters.
8 Shots
2,6,3,6,4,6,6,5,
6 hits.
3,5,6,3,1,5
2 Wounds

1 Plasma Shot
6
1 hit
4
1 wound

1 Krak Missile
Miss
No wounds

So, three wounds total. FNP is used for all of them, as no saves are allowed.
FNP
2,2,6
So, two Grots bite the dust, in the first round of shooting. (This is assuming they are within 24 inches. If not, this changes.) If I am correct, this calls for a leadership test. I’m sure you can see were this is going. Assuming the Razorwing comes in on the third turn, you can most likely assume no Grots, and very few Wracks. Once the Razorwing comes in, I’d immediately focus all fire on it, and it would go down. After that, well, it’s just clean up.

So, to sum, my issues with this list are:

No Range.
Bad Saves, and over reliance on Feel no Pain.
Easy to focus down.
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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 06 2014, 09:54

mech up or die my friend! the razorwing isnt very good, and in a small points game if things go badly for you, then you can be tabled before it even arrives. i'd ditch that plan entirely tbh, with those points you can make a much more mobile + hard hitting coven force as below.
Heamy rides with the grotesques and benefits from furious charge for his power weapon. you could of course ditch it for a liquifier if you'd prefer but an assault unit should have some way of bypassing armour imho. Grots can punch light armour to death and you've also got a lance on the raider if you need it. venoms provide AI support and wracks score objectives/assault depleted units

HQ:
Haemy, power weapon 60

Troops:
x5 wracks, liquifier 60
-venom, cannon 65 125

x5 wracks, liquifier 60
-venom, cannon 65 125

x3 grotesques, liquifier 115
-raider, ff + AE 75
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Otto Weston
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Otto Weston

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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 06 2014, 12:24

Hmmm. Damn. Thanks for the Mathshammer GKP, it has revealed a lot. So there are issues with getting enough wounds/survivability also retaining killing power without relying upon the Razorwing.

Do you have any suggestions?

csjarrat, I know it could go badly and that the Razorwing isn't brilliant, but I just want to try. xD
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Count Adhemar
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Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 06 2014, 12:51

I'm genuinely curious as to your motivation for trying to squeeze a flyer into this size game. What is your thinking?

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GKP
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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 06 2014, 12:51

Honestly, if your looking for a good configuration to use the Razorwing in, (and trust me, I love it too) The list I suggested earlier is your best bet for surviving. Run the Venom with Wracks+Haemy up to whatever Armor your opponent brings, pray he only brought one, park the Venom outside of line of sight, and then, next turn, Dark Gate the armor, and pray it dies. Though, in a pinch, a Haemy with a poweraxe can kill AV11.

That list gives you three things.

Range,
Some AT,
Your Razorwing.
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Otto Weston
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Otto Weston

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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 06 2014, 13:35

Count - I wanted a Razorwing in a low point game because I like doing unconventional things with my 40k armies (Flayed Ones and Doomsday Ark in my Necron Army etc.)

GKP - I might have to take that list. I just don't want to use Venoms as they're used a lot in current DE armies, and I'm not really a fan of the model.
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GKP
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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 06 2014, 13:37

Well, I'm trying to give you a balance of not getting tabled, but still having a Razorwing. As to the Venom, you see them alot, because they are really good. Cheap as chips, and with great guns. To not use them is to handicap oneself. There is a reason that Venom Spam is a thing, after all.
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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 06 2014, 13:40

you could always swap the venoms out for raiders with aethersails if you'd rather. the lances or dissies could be useful and they are a quicker delivery system for your wracks
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Otto Weston
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Otto Weston

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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 06 2014, 13:45

Yeah I get that :/

Ok. How about this? Getting a Raider instead (prefer the model), and dumping more wracks into the Raider.

Haemonculus
Power Weapon
Liquifier
Hexrifle
85pts

Wracks x9
Acothyst
Hexrifle
Liquifier
125pts

Wracks x3
Acothyst
Hexrifle
55pts

Raider Dedicated Transport
FlickerField
70pts

Razorwing Jetfighter
Splinter Cannon
FlickerField
165pts

Edit - Lol was writing this before you posted CS. Yeah if I have to go transport, I'd rather a Raider.
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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: 500pt Advice   500pt Advice I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 06 2014, 14:06

it'd be better with 2 raiders mate. 3 wracks on an objective is incredibly easy to kill
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