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doriii
Archon Shelby
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Archon Shelby
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PostSubject: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 20 2013, 04:14

Hi all.

I'm new to this forum and would like your opinions on the below army list. I have 3 mates with the following 40K armies, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Chaos & Ultramarine.

With the exception of the BA, they all make extensive use of the old Aegis Defence & Quad Gun tactic, loading up on missiles, plasma and lots of hvy weapons... This is my proposed counter;-

Baron Sathonyx

7 Hellions with Helliarch upgrade (Agoniser & Grenade Launcher)

10 Warriors with 8 Splinter Rifles, 1 Blaster and 1 Dark Lance

10 warriors with 8 Splinter Rifles, 1 Blaster and 1 Dark Lance

2 Raiders with Dark Lance

5 Trueborn with 4 Blasters and 1 Dark Lance in a Venom (Splinter Cannon upgrade)

6 Reaver Jetbikes with 2 Heat Lances

5 Trueborn with 4 Blasters and a Dark Lance

Ravager

Pain Engine (Liquifer Gun & TL Heat Lance)

5 Scourges with 2 Blasters


By my count, this comes out at 1493. So any thoughts / tweeks?
All advice gratefully received.
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Archon Shelby
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 20 2013, 15:46

In case any of you have suggestions I own;-

20 Wyches
30 Warriors
5 Incubi
9 Hellion
5 Scourges
6 Jet bikes
1 Pain Engine
1 Jetwing
1 Archon
3 Hamm
2 Succubus
10 Wracks
3 Raiders
1 Ravager
2 Venoms
Lilith, Duke Silicus & Urien
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doriii
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doriii

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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 20 2013, 23:49

if you want to destroy your mates, i'd just load up on disintigrators ... watch their faces when that ap2 hits  lol!

tip on your list: if you want lances, you should have them on something that can move/shoot, warriors should be anti infantry only imo

blasterborn become rather expensive at 4 blasters per unit

7 is kind of small for the hellions, most reccomend 15-20 if you really are thinking about using them Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 21 2013, 06:21

@doriii wrote:
if you want to destroy your mates, i'd just load up on disintigrators ... watch their faces when that ap2 hits  lol!

Thanks for that tip - will swop out the DL on vehicles for Dis...

tip on your list: if you want lances, you should have them on something that can move/shoot, warriors should be anti infantry only imo

blasterborn become rather expensive at 4 blasters per unit

7 is kind of small for the hellions, most reccomend 15-20 if you really are thinking about using them Smile

TBH, not too sure about Hellions, never used them before, I have an impending battle over the Xmas period, and will see how they fair before I consider investing in more....
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 21 2013, 10:20

Do a hellion search here on the forums, theres lots of good info
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 21 2013, 10:35

@doriii wrote:
Do a hellion search here on the forums, theres lots of good info

You might say there's a HELLion of a lot of good info...  Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 27 2013, 11:33

Well despite hugging cover like it was my lover, I lasted until turn 4, by which point, I managed to get to kill 1 rhino and 1 unit of hvy weapons before my entire army was destroyed (thanks to plasma and missiles)

Sad

I just don't know what to do, I load everyone up on transports which get blown up ending in footslog death march or I present loads of targets and they still get wiped out thanks to low toughness but the enemy always makes saves thanks to Aegis or space marine armour...

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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 27 2013, 11:52

Sounds like my first games with de, it takes practice in both playing and list building. Keep your units cheap and expendable. Units should have one mission, like kabalites should only be firing at infantry i think the blaster and DL is a points trap. And use range BLOS and speed to make 100% of your army attack >100% of his
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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 27 2013, 12:35

also mate;
-make sure you're playing on a board with plenty of terrain on it. i've seen far too many people get their arses handed to them because there isnt a single piece of terrain on the board that block line of sight!!!
-don't move forward if you don't have to. remember that pre-measuring is allowed and most of our weapons are 36". most marine weapons are about 24" (missiles being the exception). sit out of range and fire away.
-Focus fire. if he has a nasty devastator squad loaded with missiles sat in cover, shoot it until it is dead. don't plink a model off each squad in his army. destroy one unit and then move on.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 27 2013, 15:19

Basically they all sit behind an Aegis with a hvy tank to block of the end and blow up the board with missiles and plasma. I hug cover to give me some save as all high AP to go through my armour. Kindaat my wits end, I use cover (5 pieces each to place) and still I'm 0 to 15 losses.

Sad

Any advice gratefully received as to how to actually threaten Space Marines in 6th Ed.

Archon Shelby - a bit crotchety after his 15th regen.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 27 2013, 15:26

Sm aren't that bad if it's just dudes and an aegis.
A standard raider rush with liquifiers can melt marines in cover.
We don't hurt for AT options either with easy access to lance weapons.
Can you give us a full version of his army list?
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 27 2013, 17:46

@csjarrat wrote:
Sm aren't that bad if it's just dudes and an aegis.
A standard raider rush with liquifiers can melt marines in cover.
We don't hurt for AT options either with easy access to lance weapons.
Can you give us a full version of his army list?

They tend to play variations on a theme of turtle - aegis defence, with hvy support either end with a couple of melee capable squads in case I get close.

Ultramarines - generic captain & librarian, venerable dreadnaught, tactical squad x2, combat squad x2, razorback, predator x2, whirlwind. - Tactics translate into turtle with aegis and death by plasma

Space Wolves - Logan, Njal, Rune Priest, wolf guard dreadnaughty, space wolf pack, drop pods with assault squads and wolf guard, and again 2 whirlwinds and a predator - same tactics as ultramarines but with the occasional drop pod filled with CC terminators.

Blood Angels - never fields basic troops as through use of Dante and Lemartes uses elites (sang guard, death company and dreadnaughts as troops) with a baal predator and stormraven.

Chaos - Terminator Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Chaos Terminators, Chaos Space Marines, Heldrake, Predator x2, Obliterators. Tactics - turtle, use of plasma & missiles and tanks to range kill.

I've been told by the ultramarines player that I fail as I allow them to play to their game rather then force them to come out of cover by making them play my game. BUT they have no reason to come out, as they are safe behind their defence line and can shoot loads to my lesser frequent shots and missions tend towards seizing objectives behind their lines (can't win in a shooting war) or wipe out (purge alien, if it's the relic then they make no effort to seize it but destroy my forces instead) As they always get 1st blood and destroy more of my units then I do of theirs as I can't get close with melee or out gun them, I fail to see how I can win - or make them leave cover... Sad

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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 27 2013, 17:52

Just a quick reply as in pub, but you have the speed and mobility to get round the side of the line. Think about dual disintegrator cannon flyer with missiles. It can easily get around the line and melt the squishy marines
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 28 2013, 02:00

@Archon Shelby wrote:
Baron Sathonyx

7 Hellions with Helliarch upgrade (Agoniser & Grenade Launcher)

10 Warriors with 8 Splinter Rifles, 1 Blaster and 1 Dark Lance

10 warriors with 8 Splinter Rifles, 1 Blaster and 1 Dark Lance

2 Raiders with Dark Lance

5 Trueborn with 4 Blasters and 1 Dark Lance in a Venom (Splinter Cannon upgrade)

6 Reaver Jetbikes with 2 Heat Lances

5 Trueborn with 4 Blasters and a Dark Lance

Ravager

Pain Engine (Liquifer Gun & TL Heat Lance)

5 Scourges with 2 Blasters
Okay, so I sort of am here because of your other post about the Aegis, and apparently this isn't your regular build, it's a proposed build, but I see a couple of issues with this build that I'd like to address.

I'm going to possibly come across as preachy here (I really do arm for charmingly bemusing) so I would just like to state up front these are all just *my* thoughts and what works for *me*. At the end of the day I have seen people win huge tournaments with DE builds that didn't make sense to me...it's one of the quirks of our current army book. There are a couple of ways for us to build, and there are many right (and many, many wrong) ways to do it. The core point is to figure out what is or isn't working for you and to maximize it.

My core issue with your army is that you're wasting a lot of points on things that you don't really need - I'm going to talk about that a bit and then pare down your list. You're fielding a 1500 point army, but I think what you've done is build a 1250 point army, and then added extra doo-dads to it to make it 1500 in size. I suspect this is a core reason you're losing a lot of games because your army is not streamlined enough to maximize what it's doing.

Let's begin.

#1 - Baron and Hellions - you basically have...a very tiny pile of Hellions. The entire point of the Baron is to give you first turn and then to boost up the unit he's with. Hellions aren't that bloody good to begin with, and and then you're giving him 7 guys, toughness 3, basically no armor, and a decent cover save and thinking they might be able to do something here. They can't, they're going to be gunned off the board by a single squad of 10 Marines without much effort. This needs more Hellions, or you need to do something different entirely.

#2 - Warriors in Raiders - I dislike this build. You have a lot of Warriors, which means you're paying for splinter rifles, but really you're trying to pay for the dark lance, so all those extra rifles are a tax in addition to the expensive dark lance to...just get a single lance shot. You then toss in a Blaster as well, meaning you want this bloated and expensive unit to move up and unleash lance fire...but then this super expensive dark lance (with assorted rifle body tax) is just snap shotting most of the time. I don't see much gain there, you're paying +70 points for 4 rifles you're not using when shooting at vehicles and 1 lance that is likely snap shotting at least half the time. Then you do it twice (140 excess points to my mind) Is that really worth it for what you're "gaining"?

#3 - Trueborn in Venom - this is a bit better, as at least they're all anti-tank equipped. I find the lance to be a bit of an indulgence here as well, but at least it's only costing you about 40 points this time.

#4 - RJBs - this is an...OK unit. I think it meshes with most of what you're fielding and serves a useful purpose. A lot will depend on what you do with it.

#5 - Footslogging Trueborn - Okay...so they have a lance and Blaster and are just sort of...walking round. That seems non-useful. Most of the army will be engaged with the enemy Turn 1-2. These guys are either going to sit back shooting a lance (in which case, why pay for Blasters) or will move forward to shoot Blasters (in which case, why buy a lance...and also they really won't be in play till Turn 3, so it's a lot of points, easy to kill, and of questionable help to you.

#6 - I never badmouth Ravagers

#7 - How well does the Talos help you? Because literally the entire rest of your army is pretty much super fast, and then this guy is just shambling along, bilt to be a front rank bruiser, but will in reality arrive after the fight is pretty much already decided one way or the other. I don't see a lot of value there.

#8 - Scourges - Well...they do what they do. But, you also have open Troop slots, which makes me wonder if they need to be doing what they do here, since Troops can do what Scourges do, and are also capable of holding objectives.

For the record, my counting up of your army has your point total at 1513.
Maybe I gakked something up, but that's what I have.

Here's my streamlined take of your list;

@Archon Shelby wrote:
Baron Sathonyx

7 Hellions with Helliarch upgrade (Agoniser)

5 Warriors with 1 Blaster in Raider
5 Warriors with 1 Blaster in Raider
5 Warriors with 1 Blaster in Raider

5 Trueborn with 4 Blasters in a Venom (Splinter Cannon upgrade)
5 Trueborn with 4 Blasters in a Venom (Splinter Cannon upgrade)

6 Reaver Jetbikes with 2 Heat Lances

Ravager w. Flickerfield
Total = 1219

Now, what I did was a couple of things.
I toasted the Talos and the Scourges. I don't feel either was helping your overall build much, so cut them out.
I took the Grenades off the Helliarch, because Sathypants has grenades, so why pay twice for them?
I took off all the extra lances and also the extra bodies involved with them.
I added an extra Venom for your Trueborn footsloggers to ride in.
I added an extra batch of 5 Warriors in a Raider (these are directly replacing the Scourges, functionally they're as good/better than the Scourges at everything the Scourges were doing for you while also being scoring)

I abided by your list of available models, so this should all work out fine for you.

Now, at 1219 you still have a lot of options and a *lot* of points to do stuff with. Your army is still basically the same as it was (well, minus a Talos, but you could toss him back in if you love him and *still* have over 150 extra points to play with. I will admit I personally think you're better off without him - but that is a personal call)

Now, as I said, i kind of feel like what you have here is a 1250 list, and I think a lot of your losses stem from this. Looking at what's left of your collection I still see some issues for you in expanding out to 1500. Even if we toss in all your Hellions (for a mighty 9 paired with Baron) they're still pretty weedy for what they're there for. And, you don't have a lot of great options for what else to do.

You might consider dropping Baron entirely and instead going with an Archon. If you were to do this what I'd do is as follows;

Drop Baron.
Drop Hellions.
Drop 1 unit of Warriors.

Add Archon.
Add Wyches/Wracks+Haem as escort, in a Raider.
Add a unit of 10 Warriors with a lance that sit on an objective on your board side and fire their lance from inside some ruins or something. Heck, buy them an Aegis and a Quadgun Wink )

It's not brilliant but it's pretty workable.

Adding the Jetfighter wouldn't be a bad choice, and could work out pretty well for you by giving you some anti-air and another potential tank killer. I'd run it pretty much stock with lances and the default missiles, all the missile upgrades are pretty horrible in a cost to value ratio.

Putting some Flickerfields onto your units would be pretty good, at plus 50 points (60 with the Razorwing) you really help protect your units from melta, missiles, and plasma weaponry. Pretty much everything Marines use to down vehicles is made 33% less effective by a simple upgrade, and you certainly have the points for it.

My thoughts.

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Archon Shelby
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 28 2013, 09:06

Thanks for the reply.

The reason for the Dark Lance / Blasters was that I never seemed to kill many SM with just Splinters compared to the vast amount of kills they seemed to wrack up against me. I totally agree with you, we tend to play 1000 or 1250 and I just added in units to that build (had the battle, wiped out by end of turn 3 with only my transport raider with 10 men on it left).

I used to load everyone up on transports for delivery, but stopped as I rarely won initiative (hence inclusion of Baron for that +1) and had my transports popped. By providing Hellions, Bikes, Scourges and a unit of foodslog Warriors and True born I was trying to provide more targets then the 4 or 5 I normally present)

But all advice is welcome. Smile
Just so tired of loosing I'd consider just about anything.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 28 2013, 15:13

Do you think your issue in your 1000-1250 games is more a weak list or trouble with using a list. Because, looking at your collection, at 1000 points it feels like you ought to be able to easily build an army to smash Space Marines. If you're dying too fast it's probably because you're failing to kill the stuff you need to be killing first. That problem can either be because your list isn't built correctly to allow you to inflict damage Turn 1 or it's because you're not using proper target priority.

From your most recent post, it sounds like the above list isn't your regular list and also that you understand it was a fluffed out list, so I am suspicious that the issue is maybe that you're not familiar enough with Marines to kill the correct units in the correct order. If you'd like you could list what his army usually consists of and then describe the rough basic order of what you shoot at and how and people can offer some advice on that - with DE, because we're so fragile, target priority is a very important issue to understand and obey.

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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 28 2013, 15:46

@Archon Shelby wrote:
@csjarrat wrote:
Sm aren't that bad if it's just dudes and an aegis.
A standard raider rush with liquifiers can melt marines in cover.
We don't hurt for AT options either with easy access to lance weapons.
Can you give us a full version of his army list?

They tend to play variations on a theme of turtle - aegis defence, with hvy support either end with a couple of melee capable squads in case I get close.

Ultramarines - generic captain & librarian, venerable dreadnaught, tactical squad x2, combat squad x2, razorback, predator x2, whirlwind.  - Tactics translate into turtle with aegis and death by plasma
so if everything starts behind the aegis, there are only 30 marines on the board.
they can take maximum of plasma cannon and plasma gun in each 10man squad iirc, and a plasma in each combat squad. if static behind an aegis, they have a max range of 24". if you take night shields, this drops to 18". target priority here would be to blow up/disable the predators ASAP. after this they're really going to struggle to hurt you unless you get really close. the whirlwind and heavy bolters on the razorback are glancing on 5's so take them out next. what loadout does he use on the dreddy?


Space Wolves - Logan, Njal, Rune Priest, wolf guard dreadnaughty, space wolf pack, drop pods with assault squads and wolf guard, and again 2 whirlwinds and a predator - same tactics as ultramarines but with the occasional drop pod filled with CC terminators. i dont play against wolves but these look like something slightly more aggressive than the above-mentioned ultras. melt the termies + wolf pack with disintegrator cannons or just play keep-away;
they're only particularly dangerous in CC.


Blood Angels - never fields basic troops as through use of Dante and Lemartes uses elites (sang guard, death company and dreadnaughts as troops) with a baal predator and stormraven.
Stormraven has to go into hover to deploy troops iirc, melt it with lances and disintegrator the expensive elites inside. dont engage them in CC as this plays to their strengths.
baal predator needs to go down quickly here. make sure it dies first as it'll take out a transport per turn.then take out the stormraven when it goes into hover mode.


Chaos - Terminator Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Chaos Terminators, Chaos Space Marines, Heldrake, Predator x2, Obliterators. Tactics - turtle, use of plasma & missiles and tanks to range kill.
heldrake is broken, no getting around that, sorry! you'll need to focus on killing the obliterators with disintegrator cannons as priority 1. then take out the predators. then use disintegrators again on the marines + termies.

I've been told by the ultramarines player that I fail as I allow them to play to their game rather then force them to come out of cover by making them play my game.  BUT they have no reason to come out, as they are safe behind their defence line and can shoot loads to my lesser frequent shots and missions tend towards seizing objectives behind their lines (can't win in a shooting war) or wipe out (purge alien, if it's the relic then they make no effort to seize it but destroy my forces instead)  As they always get 1st blood and destroy more of my units then I do of theirs as I can't get close with melee or out gun them, I fail to see how I can win - or make them leave cover... Sad

-both players place objectives, make sure plenty of them are far away from his line that you can easily stay out of LOS or range of his gun-line.
-target the things that are most dangerous to you first. these are auto-cannons, assault cannons and anti tank guns.
-don't advance into a hail of fire if you don't need to, DE play at 36" range and take 6" off the opponents range. the majority of the marine army works at 24" (including the plasma you're so scared of), dropping to 18" with your night shields. simply stay out of 18" range and they can't really hurt you!
-if you do need to engage, do it quickly and en-masse. ie; take a mass of combat troops in raders with enhanced aethersails and ram them into the enemy lines. you can be in his deployment zone T1 with a 12" move + 2d6" for aethersails, +18" flat out move for being a fast skimmer. this way they get one round of shooting at you before you stab them in the face
-roll for strategic traits for your warlord (hope for night fighter)
-deploy as much of your army out of line of sight as possible. plan for him to seize the initiative and deny him as many targets as possible if he's going first.
-remember your secondary objectives!! if you have two objectives in your half, and he has 2 in his; claim your objectives + sit out of range all game, sending one or two units on a turbo mission to get line-breaker on the last turn. hose his commander's unit down with splinter fire @36" and then immolate him with lances for slay the warlord. seems cheesy but it'll get you wins or draws.
-kill their scoring units and keep yours alive. seems obvious, but if your enemies only take two-three troops, then kill them early to prevent them from claiming any objectives. the most they can get then is the three secondaries, which you can also claim.


hope that helps!!
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 28 2013, 16:15

@Archon Shelby wrote:
In case any of you have suggestions I own;-

20 Wyches
30 Warriors
5 Incubi
9 Hellion
5 Scourges
6 Jet bikes
1 Pain Engine
1 Jetwing
1 Archon
3 Hamm
2 Succubus
10 Wracks
3 Raiders
1 Ravager
2 Venoms
Lilith, Duke Silicus & Urien

maybe look at getting in:
HQ
archon-combat gear (150-170pts)

Elites
x4 incubi
-venom (150ish)

Troops
x10 warriors + cannon, raider, racks/NS (180 ish)
x10 warriors + cannon, raider, racks/NS (180 ish)
x10 warriors + cannon, raider, racks/NS (180 ish)
x5 wyches, HWG, venom (120ish)

Fast
6 jetbikes x2 blasters (150ish)

Heavy
Ravager /NS (lances) (115 ish)
Razorwing /FF (disintegrators) (160ish)

this comes out somewhere around 1400pts depending on kit + options so you could add some luxury stuff in like the pain engine or upgrades for squads if you need them.
the marines behind the wall will still be making their saves on a 3+ against all your poison fire unless they go to ground for the 2+, in which case if they do, they're not shooting you much next turn!!
you outrange them with the nightshields and the racks make the most of your firebase.
the incubi are a bit of a luxury if you dont have any blasterborn models, they can deal with termies and wolf packs reasonably well if you need to chuck them into combat.
the razorwing is a really good anti infantry loadout so if you're up against turtlers, it can get right around the back of the defence line and melt away with disintegrators and deny them their cover saves. the missiles come in very handy against bunched up groups behind a wall too.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 28 2013, 19:30

Thanks for all your comments guys - appreciate it, will certainly incorporate the wisdom of the more experienced archons.

Of my 15 battles, 6 were Wych hvy, then did a couple as a coven with hammys and wracks with scourge and talos. Then 4 with basic gunboat load outs (lots of blaster born) couple of my friends got me the Hellions for Xmas, so wanted to play with them so my Boxing Day battle was my 1st ever use of them.

I've got a more standard 1250 battle next week vrs either Smurfs or Chaos, will report back on that...

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PostSubject: Re: Suggested 1500 list    Suggested 1500 list  I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 04 2014, 09:07

Hello, if I may add my 5cents:

I would say that I find it very helpful to think about my army from the enemy's POV. Example... I have Ravagers, Wyches, Blasterborn. He has most of the army in vehicles. His thinking will be: what can hurt me T1 - Ravagers, they are the priority target. T2 targets are wyches (as they boom easily and have trouble surviving the vehicle explosion), leaving your Blasterborn as possibly your only way to hurt the enemy. So what do you do? You need to protect your priority targets on any given turn (which changes). If you dont have a terrain, deploy your warrior squad into cover and use their Raider as a shield for Ravagers. Same goes on T2 for Wyches. Exploit Nightshields on shielding vehicles (works like a charm vs. 24'' and less range weapons). Learn to use Aethersails to give your shielding Raider the nudge it needs to get in front of the 12'' flat-outing Venoms/other Raiders when needed.

It is almost always cheaper to buy a shielding unit than additional unit to do the job of the first if it is destroyed.

Remember a very great thing about Reavers... their hits count as if they originated on the spot where they ENDED the move (see FAQ)... meaning if you ride over a SM unit which has plasmas on the back... who is going to die first? :-)

All in all - your friends were probably right about you letting them play their game. YOU need to choose what they can and can't destroy. You need to ensure that on any given turn you have something to hurt them with. Thats the beauty and the curse of the DE. Try and simulate movements on an empty board. Learn how far you can go with what, learn to evaluate distances, use Nightshields (or better say where they are good and where they are not...)

Learn to use your reserves... Never underestimate alpha strike... a raider full of trueborn with shardcarbines with Duke and splinter racks can put 19 wounds prior to saves on any unit in its alpha strike when it deepstrikes, which means 3 wounds on 2+ save and 6 wounds on 3+. Yes it costs loads of points, but it can KILL. If he shoots your raider, just let Duke's 2+ ward swallow the explosion damage and shoot next turn again, putting your Duke up front as a shield. However you should consider another HQ as your Warlord to take the heat off the Duke's unit.

Well tooled razorwing or voidraven can make a mess of his aegis bundle easily (yes, you need to destroy a T7 W2, gun in your first turn... poison shots anyone???). Remember your ravagers can be equipped with dissies for 9 AP2 shots... Also put some troops in reserves so he cant shoot them. If he has vehicles, put some Warrs there. If he has Infantry, reserve Wyches.

4 incubi and PGL, Agoni Archon will cleave through 1 unit of SM per turn, keeping them stuck for the enemy shooting phase. Venom them in his face.

Learn to maximize Jink and watch out for "ignore cover" weapons.

Concentrate and engage only portion of his army at any given time if possible. Fire on a unit until it dies, do not spread fire over his lines.

I personally find Eldar and Tau much harder matchup than any form of SM. In fact I never lost to SM or CHSM.

Consider Baron and 4-5 Beastmasters. I have used him quite successfully to swarm MEQ and TEQ... Rending attacks hurt termies and transports. I sometimes use 6 Razorwing Flocks for 30 Rending attacks. Oh... and Move Through Cover OFC... 4+ Invul on the front thanks to Khymerae.

We have PLENTY options. Especially against Marines. Try to play some battles in your head and think up something that would scare the crap out of the Emperor's lackeys! Make them SUFFER! :-D

Hope it was at least a little helpful.

-------
Aurynn
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