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Laughingcarp
Wych
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PostSubject: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 08 2013, 03:33

Thoughts on the new 40K Escalation supplement?
How to deal with all the crazy, un-explodable, expensive vehicles with 10"+ template weapons of Destroyer strength?
My gut reaction is more venoms with haywyches. Do you folks feel like this'll just increase the venom spam thing people have been using, or do we have other options?
Open for discussion, would like to hear what all you peeps have to say!

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Servicious
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 08 2013, 08:44

Lances, lances, and more lances. Unless there is some special rule that ignores the lance special rule (I haven't seen the rules for many super heavies) everything effectively at AV 12 with chances to go boom like any other tank.
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 08 2013, 09:09

Someone has already mentioned on this before - expansions only last a month or two anyway, so if we don't really fit in or don't really like it, its not a lot of time to lose.

Both haywire and dark lances do seem like solid picks though. Provided haywire and glancing hits works as they do against normal vehicles, it'll be as easy as not rolling multiple snake eyes.

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 08 2013, 09:22

From what I've read/heard, lances are still good it's the vehicle damage table that changed. Apparently they ignore results of 1-5 (but still take a hull point), and an "explodes" instead deals d3 hull points.

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I dedicate these deaths to Odin Allfather, Spearshaker, One Eye.
Fleet Shadowmaker - Kabal of the Dying Sun; Cult of Marrow Excised; Coven of Lambent Hunger
Sons of the Last Breath - Chaos Space Marines
Host of Shattered Purity - Chaos Daemons
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 08 2013, 09:30

I'm planning on dealing with super heavies by not playing against them Very Happy 

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Taffy10
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 08 2013, 09:32

ooo can finally roll out my rev titan

gonna love the whole 36" move then fire the 2 (2shots 5" templates each gun) along with the 5 shot str 5 ap3 missiles and best of all super heavies can shoot a diff weapon at a diff target

Think we may have the most powerful and costly one but its sure gonna scare the hell out of these holed up armies

[Edit]: alos our titans get the best save/shield as after they are hit on a roll of 3+ (if static) 4+ if moved is needed to actually roll on the pen.. so a moving titan gets a 50/50 chance to ignore the shot before it even rolls for pen

Please use the edit button to add to a post rather than double post. Your friendly mod-ESE

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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 08 2013, 17:14

This is Escalation, featuring the most OP unit in there, the Revenant Titan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53AGY_AE4ho.

TLDR: the Revenant Titan kills everything on the board. The only other unit doing anything remotely useful in the entire game is the enemy's Belakor using puppet master on the Revenant. That way, the titan can fully use its potential to destroy everything in every shooting phase in every turn.

Who'd have thought that a unit that can move 36" per turn, lay down four strength D large blasts on two different targets (and target another with its missile launcher) and has 18 effective hullpoints (due to Titan Holo-fields) might be a bit overpowered in regular 40k.
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Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 08 2013, 17:49

On pg 21 there's a rule called invincible behemoth which basically states super-heavy vehicles can't have their armor degraded.

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Taffy10
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 08 2013, 18:01

"The only other unit doing anything remotely useful in the entire game is the enemy's Belakor using puppet master on the Revenant. "

Super heavies are immune to psycic powers.

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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 08 2013, 20:31

@Taffy10 wrote:
"The only other unit doing anything remotely useful in the entire game is the enemy's Belakor using puppet master on the Revenant. "

Super heavies are immune to psycic powers.
Yeah, no. Not in Apocalypse version this year.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 09 2013, 00:59

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
On pg 21 there's a rule called invincible behemoth which basically states super-heavy vehicles can't have their armor degraded.
Which if you read it references permanent armour loss (like from necron scarabs) and thus has no impact on lance or melta which both work fine

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Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 09 2013, 15:17

My B. You're right, it's actually referenced in the very next paragraph that lances still work. I guess I should atcually read the book instead of skim it. Lol. Thanks Massaen.

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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 09 2013, 16:55

Some poor soul posted this:
1850pt Sisters list.

Canoness 65pts
5x Sisters 60pts
5x Sisters 60pts
5x Sisters 60pts
5x Sisters 60pts
Skyshield Landing Pad 75pts
Reaver Titan 1450pts (stood on the Skyshield)

Unless Skyshiled thing make him warded against lances we have 1525pt to spend on lances to kill that thing in 1-2 turns....that lone archon can have fun with 21 Nuns. Im not amused....

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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 09 2013, 17:31

I don't see DE having issues with super heavy vehicles; however, I DO see us having issues with gargantuan creatures since Poison only works on them with a 6+.Lances work just fine but not Entropic Strike from Necrons.

There is also no word in the book if other Super Heavies not listed in the book are going to be allowed or not.

Some of the concessions for playing against an army with a Lord of War is interesting.
- +1 VP for every 3 Hull Points/Wounds
- +1 to your Steal the Initiative Roll when opposing a Super Heavy
- New Warlord Trait table if you are going against a super heavy.

With each super heavy being 500+ points (with the exception of the Necron Obelisk), I'll be curious to see how effective and unbalanced they truly are. Though I would definitely pack up and leave if my Chaos player puts a Lord of Skulls onto a Skyshield landing pad along with a Herald with the Grimoire.
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 09 2013, 19:39

@Unholyllama wrote:
I don't see DE having issues with super heavy vehicles; however, I DO see us having issues with gargantuan creatures since Poison only works on them with a 6+.Lances work just fine but not Entropic Strike from Necrons.  

There is also no word in the book if other Super Heavies not listed in the book are going to be allowed or not.

Some of the concessions for playing against an army with a Lord of War is interesting.
- +1 VP for every 3 Hull Points/Wounds
- +1 to your Steal the Initiative Roll when opposing a Super Heavy
- New Warlord Trait table if you are going against a super heavy.

With each super heavy being 500+ points (with the exception of the Necron Obelisk), I'll be curious to see how effective and unbalanced they truly are.  Though I would definitely pack up and leave if my Chaos player puts a Lord of Skulls onto a Skyshield landing pad along with a Herald with the Grimoire.
Counter with a Revenant Titan and erase that 2++ Lord of Skulls in a turn.

I think the new IA:Apocalypse has some (or will have some) super-heavies that have the Lord of War mark of approval. I fully expect at least the Warhound Titan to be an option in the near future.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10 2013, 15:26

The thing is, it's the destroyer weapons that make this so imbalanced... I played one repentant at 3k with a opponent in apoc who specifically tailored a list to kill it and he still go tabled by it.

Had they changed destroyers to S10 AP1 ordinance with ignores cover and instant death it would be fine... Destroyer is just too good for no additional points

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10 2013, 15:32

And so it begins.

First of the big tournaments post-Escalation and they're nerfing D weapons, amongst other things. Don't agree with all the changes but that one I think will be common in a lot of tournaments.

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Soooo... Superheavies. YhBv3Wk
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Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10 2013, 15:59

This looks like Warhammer 40K: The Gathering
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10 2013, 16:29

I'm looking forward to trying out an Escalation battle against a friend later this week. My necrons vs his Lord of Skulls at 1850. With no D weapons I'll be curious to see just how bad they are with the concessions that the Escalation rules yield.

Personally - I am curious to see how things like this go. I'm getting tired of hearing constant complaints about JetSeer and Screemerstar builds. I think this is a good thing since GW doesn't care about tournaments but I'm pretty certain things will end up having to change well before Feast of Blades 2014 happens.
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 12 2013, 02:25

The guys at Frontline Gaming are actually nerfing the 2+ re-rollable save for their Las Vegas Open tournament early next year. They are implementing a rule that a 2+ save that is re-rolled needs a 4+ to succeed. I have E-mailed Reecius to say I'm totally behind this and admire what they're doing; if GW can't keep things sensible then the only recourse is to make house rules like this to balance things out. Any player who needs a 2++ re-rollable save shouldn't be playing competitively anyway. It just takes all the skill out of the game, where it just becomes a case of 'have you got the firepower to destroy a nigh-on unkillable unit before it kills your whole army?', which is ridiculous. Lots of big tournament players have felt they are being forced to play these lists to avoid effectively playing with one hand behind their backs, which says it all, really. Without some more effective comp/nerfs then the game is in danger of becoming a farce. It shouldn't be possible for an inexperienced player to beat an expert purely on the strength of the list they have. It needs fixing and the time is now.
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Taffy10
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 14 2013, 00:58

ooo

Lots more but none for us, soon you might as well just play apoc
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/L/lordsofwar.pdf

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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 14 2013, 13:11

@Taffy10 wrote:
ooo

Lots more but none for us, soon you might as well just play apoc
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/L/lordsofwar.pdf
Use a 40k legal Eldar Phantom Titan. Now you've got your own private Apoc battle right there. No need for an opponent though, because his army will be gone first turn anyway. And even if isn't, good luck shooting down an effective 48 hull points. This is obviously the best thing that has happened to 40k ever.
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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 14 2013, 16:41

@Count Adhemar wrote:
And so it begins.

First of the big tournaments post-Escalation and they're nerfing D weapons, amongst other things. Don't agree with all the changes but that one I think will be common in a lot of tournaments.

The intro sounds good on the main page, but all I get is a blank page when I go to this...drat...
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commandersasha
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 14 2013, 21:22

I've been trying to open that page all day, via TheTyranidHive, and direct on 3++. I thought it was just my computer!
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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: Soooo... Superheavies.   Soooo... Superheavies. I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 14 2013, 21:53

The intro actually looked like it would be a good read.
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