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 I would like some advice please.

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Selvhan
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PostSubject: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 01 2013, 05:48

Hey guys.

I'm playing almost 1 game ( 2000 ) every week and I am getting my a** kick almost every game.
The only rule is no special character.

Here is a couple army I can meet :

Tau,Ork, Blood Angels, IG, Dark Angel, Necron, Nids, Grey Knight and CSM.

You never really know against who you are going to play.


So I need some help to make a "good" all around list.

So far I was using 3 Venom, 3 raider, 2 Ravager as vehicles + 1 flyers. Archon with Grotesque. My troops are mostly Kabalite in raider and/or behind an aegis.

What all around list would you play and what would be your tactics when you do not have the 1st turn ?
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DingK
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DingK

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PostSubject: Re: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 01 2013, 10:37

First up, it's alot easier to give advice if you post the full list you're using. All units, upgrades etc. Second, what are the problems you keep running into? Too little AT, too little AI, too little AA? Not enough terrain to provide cover?

The opponents you list can run a very large amount of list types, so we need at least some common factors to base advice on.
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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 01 2013, 11:12

It would also help to know if as a group you use the second force org chart after reaching 2k, or stick to just one (which I know some groups do). The reasoning is that after 2k any semblance of game balance imposed by the FoC just goes straight out the window when you start getting access to insanity like 9 riptides...

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Selvhan
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PostSubject: Re: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 01 2013, 15:19

You can use double OC but it's not well seen. I think 1 or 2 players use it only.

The last list I was using :

Archon : Drgs, PGL, SF, Husk Blade.
4x Grotesque : Aberation + mindphase
Raider : NS, FF, DC

3x Trueborn : 2x SC
Venom : NS, 2x SC

3x Trueborn : 2x SC
Venom : NS, 2x SC

5x Wyches : HWG
Venom : NS, 2x SC,

10 Kab : SC, B
Raider : NS, FF, rack, DC

10 Kab : SC, B
Raider : NS, FF, rack, DC

Haemonculus
20x Kab : 2x SC, B
Aegis DL + Quad gun

Ravager : NS, FF, 3x DL

Ravager : NS, FF, 3x DL

Razorwing : NS, FF, SC, 2xDC


The list I made before this one had more DL. But I found out that it was very often overkill. My last game was against Tau and after the second turn I had almost nothing left on the table, no more vehicle and very few infantry. He had the 1st turn and his list was something like 3 unit of 6 pathfinder, 3 unit of 12 fire warrior with 1 Ethereal, 3 broadside, 3 crisis + his commander, 22 Krout, 1 riptide and 1 hammerhead.

But the problem is also that I will probably not face him next time because the game are chosen randomly.
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Expletive Deleted
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 01 2013, 17:35

You have 170 points in vehicle upgrades. 150 points of them defensive.

If you step back and think about your game against the Tau player, you'll see how much those 150 points helped your vehicles survive. With those 150 points you could field 1-2 more units. Even only taking one upgrade would free up 70 points.

If you're running the Huskblade on the Archon there's no reason not to take a soul trap.

YMMV but do you find the one squad of five wyches to be effective?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I think the 20 man warriors on the quad gun are too expensive for their job. Since you're running a Haemonculus anyway, I think Wracks would be far cheaper and tougher, and have the same BS as a normal Hammy I think. Then you could run the haemonculus with the grots and the Archon, in that extra spot on the raider to add two more wounds and furious charge.


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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 01 2013, 17:44

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Then you could run the haemonculus with the grots and the Archon, in that extra spot on the raider to add two more wounds and furious charge.

... and a liquifier and some insurance against Berserk Rampage.
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Selvhan
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PostSubject: Re: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 01 2013, 19:47

Grotesque need only an independent character. So the Archon is fine for that.

Yeah sometimes I run the Haemonculus with the Archon and the grotesque.

Would you remove the Nightshield or the flickerfield ? I think I would keep the FF.

But guys, what do you do against Tau ? I mean , what unit would you field ? If you don't have the 1st turn, how are you going to deploy your army ?
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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 01 2013, 20:27

Heavy reserves (unless they have a lot of interceptor), hide behind BLOS terrain where possible. I don't play against Tau often, mind, and the last 1 v 1 game I played against Tau was against triple riptide... may as well not have bothered turning up for that one...

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Selvhan
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PostSubject: Re: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 02 2013, 01:03

He had 2-3 units with interceptor.
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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 02 2013, 03:17

@Selvhan wrote:
Grotesque need only an independent character. So the Archon is fine for that.
Yes, but as was pointed out you would start with furious charge. That's rather important. Plus with a haemy in your CC bomb, you get some interesting challenge and overwatch eating options in that you can separate the Haemy in the move phase and let him get roasted by overwatch. Also he can carry a liquifier gun. Mindphase gauntlet does not compute for me either; scissor hand is far superior.

@Selvhan wrote:
Would you remove the Nightshield or the flickerfield ? I think I would keep the FF.
remove the FF. You should always be moving your skimmers, so 5+ jink is good enough. venoms with NS are your call, I never bother. They hover around the outside for me and plink from 36" away.

@Selvhan wrote:
But guys, what do you do against Tau ? I mean , what unit would you field ? If you don't have the 1st turn, how are you going to deploy your army ?
Wracks on a quad gun are just as useful as your kabalite blob. I never use a quad gun though; too static.

FF just don't have the cache they used to for me, better ways to spend your points.

I also tend to run blaster born rather than splinterborn- if you are manning a quad gun with Kabalites consider 2 darklances. Similar range, benefits from being static, and can hurt armour.

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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 02 2013, 11:07

I'm going to disagree with Darkgreen and say remove the NS. Tau have silly range on their guns, but the thing that makes them utterly over the top is their ease of access to 'ignores cover' weaponry. Markerlights, SMS, that sort of silliness. Yeah, you should always be moving your skimmers, but when they just take the jink save away with minimal effort you might be better off with a flicker. I'd take flicker over night, but nothing over flicker if points are tight.

If you leave the archon's raider untouched, and the flickerfield on the batplane, but strip all the other NS and FF off, you'll free up enough points for another venom squad. That might genuinely be worth doing here.

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Nighthawk
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PostSubject: Re: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 02 2013, 21:25

On the armies you play against most often, FF would help most against Tau, and NS would help against everything else. So if you don't know what you're playing against, and you have a 1 in 6 chance of playing Tau, take the NS.
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commandersasha
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PostSubject: Re: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 02 2013, 23:48

Aside from the vehicle upgrades, your list is similar to mine. I have two 3-man squads of Reavers for caltrop sweeps and late game contesting/Linebreaker/preventing tabling.

Do you work hard at ensuring secondary objectives? I heavily skew my target priority to get First Blood, my Soul Trap usually ends up with a Warlord in it, and I always get Linebreaker, even if I give it away too.

I guess that you need to work on your on-table strategy, as your list is not wildly bad.

Read up on good BatReps (I am a shameless worshipper of Mushkilla's ones in the Realspace Raids sub-forum); learn how to make maximum use of cover, don't be afraid to miss some shooting in order to re-position yourself for the following turn's killing blow.

Wolf-pack: swing your whole army to one flank, then chew your way across his back line: let his own units block his fire lanes.

It is undeniable that Tau are hard for us: the range and power of their guns, and the amount of Interceptor, Ignores Cover and Ignores Line Of Sight negates the defensive benefits of our fast movement, so you must instead rely on the offensive benefits of it.

I haven't beaten Tau yet.

Good luck!
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: I would like some advice please.   I would like some advice please. I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2013, 11:06

It doesn't matter if tau ignore cover or not, FF will not save you. Their rate of fire is just too high.

If you really want to upgrade your skimmers it has to be NS. The vast majority of tau guns are 36" max.

Spread out to avoid blasts, dance just out of range, shoot at marker lights and the few units that can shoot you back.

Move in to deliver the killing blow when you see the opportunity... see Mushkilla's batreps.
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