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 Haemonculus Ancient

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Fletch
Kabalite Warrior
Fletch

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PostSubject: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 17 2011, 15:59

I just don't see the merits of spending the extra 30pts on an Ancient over the std. version, not to mention its the most expensive non-unique HQ option.

Outside the obvious he\she has a slightly better stateline.

I think 65 or 70 points would fit better given the cost of the other 3 wound HQ options. 30pts is a pretty steep jump. Now if they would have limited the std. Haem to say 1 pick of arcane wargear but the ancienct got 2; maybe give the Ancient 2 starting pain tokens or a limited Urien-esq ability (i.e. either hand out 1 pain token or maybe augement 1 unit of Grots). Maybe make the Ancient the only one that makes Wracks a troop choice, any of these maybe, but without I am really struggling to find their merits against sticking with standard versions outside fluff or theme (i.e. all Coven)

Right now it seems most choose the std. Haemonculus as your "hero" level (cheap-ish) HQ and the Archon or Succi for their "Lord" when one decides to spend more points in HQ leaving the Ancient out of the equation.
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CDSzafraniec
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 18 2011, 18:58

Agreed. If youre looking for your Haemie to be anything but a support role, youll be dissapointed, so extra stats is not going to help you. Especially when that 30 points goes elsewhere very easily.

Now, thats competitive. A Haemie Ancient all kitted out in a group of Grotesques or even Wracks is fluffy as hell. I WILL have my Haemie Ancient destroy someone, and cackle maniacally.
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theblackjackal
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 18 2011, 19:19

How about a squad of sniper haemonculae (Ancient, 2x Haemonculae, all with Hexrifles)? At the very least it would be interesting to try out...

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Fletch
Kabalite Warrior
Fletch

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 18 2011, 20:50

@theblackjackal wrote:
How about a squad of sniper haemonculae (Ancient, 2x Haemonculae, all with Hexrifles)? At the very least it would be interesting to try out...

Wow, now thats an expensive sniper unit but hey at least it is something different; after a while you get really board reading through DE army lists most of which are just variations of the same recipe....trueborn with blasters in venoms, check, lots of ravagers, check, throw in a dash of Duke......

But to my point why take an Ancient in your scenerio when you could just field a trio of standard Haemonculus for 30points less? 1 better BS meh, a higher LD, pointless as you'd be fearless anyway.

While not trying to rubber stamp the Ancient away, its really more of an identiy issue. The Ancient truely gets lost in translation because the standard Haemonculus can do exactly the same things but for much less. It would be similar to if Warriors could also take 4 blasters in a 5 man unit. People would be posting why spend X points more for Trueborn when a Warrior squad can do the same thing for less? Extra attack, really don't expect them to get into HtH anyway, LD really don't expect them to live long if they draw fire anyway, armor well they wear the same stuff, options the same.....

Right now the Ancient is a 30 point champion upgrade to a normal unit of Haemonculus but without any added perks or unlocks to additional wargear. Right now the Ancient lives in the fluff

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Grie Velorn
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 25 2011, 23:29

The Ancient makes Wracks troops, how is that not a perk? That is freaking awesome.

That gives you access to one of the cheapest Venom units so if you are into Venom spam it works out really well.

The Ancient itself isn't that great but it allows you to do a lot with your army so 30pts in my book is a bargain.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 25 2011, 23:31

But "cheap" Heamonculus allow that too.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 25 2011, 23:51

^ what he said. The Ancient upgrade has no real value.

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Grie Velorn
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 25 2011, 23:54

I was wrong, I thought only the Ancient allowed that. Whelp time to redo my list then.

And agreed the Ancient is pretty much useless.
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Shadows Revenge
Hierarch of Tactica
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 26 2011, 09:30

I actually find use of him in that if you ever want a real close combat haemie. with FC he goes first before most units, he has enough attacks, and has some interesting wargear to boot.

Ofc I only field one when I run my coven list... because I find its fluffy to have one, and it fills that role that the coven list lacks, good PW attacks. Also I rather have Urien run Grot duty, that extra wound a turn is amazing.

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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 26 2011, 09:58

He's crap , you want cheap utility and pain point = standard heam , you want some extra juice ? take Urien, even if the Ancient got access to more arcane wargear, it's all utter crap so IF you spent yet more points on useless rubbish to justify him you are just shooting yourself in the foot.

Along with the frustration of 'the lance curse' the arcane wargear has to be one of the biggest failures in the books.

"oh you don't get psy powers ? thats ok we'll give you some artifacts that replicate the effects , except the are universally worse than any of the psy powers you see being used and one-use only with a fair chance at complete failure , with your one shot ..... fail fail fail and more fail

I think there is a fair argument that given the cost/one use and lack of any psy defense the artifacts should have alot more punch than they do.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 27 2011, 03:40

The only reason to take him is for fluff.

Unfortunately Sorrowshard is right. I remember reading the arcane wargear section for the first time, thinking this is going to be so cool! Heaps of new toys to play with! Oh no wait, one use only, expensive, unreliable, f***! A good idea ruined. Oh well we got a great codex, you cant expect GW to get everything right.

'The lance curse' is real and painful. They need to be concentrated to have any effect tho i believe 6th ed will fix this. Something like lance counts glancing as penetrating and changes to vehicle and shooting rules will make them easier to pop in general.

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a1elbow
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 27 2011, 04:44

If he was T5 and Arcane Wargear was better. Sadly, he doesn't actually have access to anything his lesser-thans do, so all he has to offer is mild stat boosts.

But...I don't know, I think they are less good than any other HQ choice, but they just cost a little too much. About twenty points less and they would possibly have some use.

People say a Succubus is bad, but they are still miles ahead of this one.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 27 2011, 16:57

People say the Succubus is bad? Crying or Very sad

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 27 2011, 18:18

People say Wazdakka (guy that allow You to take Ork Warbikers as Troops, absolutely best thing they can take in troops and yes, better than Biker Nobz since You can spam them) is bad too...

Anyway ancient upgrade is pretty meh, kinda like Urien (IMHO hw is not so good for his cost, he could leave CoF at home or take something useful, like CoM or SS)

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Judgex83
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 27 2011, 18:21

Ive used an ancient to great sucess as a close combat HQ. An agoniser and a liquifier gun and he can kill half a unit by himself. Now toss him in a unit of incubi and now they have a 3+ 4+ save and thats nothing to scoff at. Yes if he gets hit back he will die but isnt that are entire army excpt grotesques
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 27 2011, 18:40

He definetely is more killy, but let's compare that to Orks (as example)
For 10 points You can upgrade Boy to Nob, which give You +1 to A, I, W, LD, pretty much what You get with Ancient (except +1 to WS and BS). [it's 14 points when You compare Ork Boy and Nob from Nob unit]

If he would be 15-20 points upgrade, then 0-1 limit actually would have sense. But for 80 points? Nah, better to take Archon.

It's not bad tho, in CC You would hit on 3+ vs. most things (and enemy on 5+), he have 150% of Wounds and LD 9 is "Ok".

I could take him in Haemi-themed list. Otherwise - Archon, because he is better squad leader and CC killer.

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Judgex83
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 27 2011, 19:23

You also have to add in he gives himself and the unit he is in FNP so does the normal haem but I was tossing that in for your nob comparrison. I always felt that part of what you payed for a HQ choice or any unit upgrade was the ability to take a more diverse selection of weapons. Yes you do pay for those choices aswell but you CAN take them and for the most part he has the same upgrades as an archon except for armor and the shield choices.
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus Ancient   Haemonculus Ancient I_icon_minitime

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