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Smokeydubbs
Slave
Smokeydubbs

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Join date : 2013-10-14

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PostSubject: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 14 2013, 18:20

So I'm a pretty new DE player and still am figuring things out the hard way.  I've read and reread the very helpful unit guide on here so I have a good idea how things should work.

My question is, what is an effective DSing Scourge build like?

I built a tentative 1850 list to kind of get an idea of strategy and I want your opinions and critiques.

HQ
- Duke {in Raider}

Elite
- 7x Trueborn (2x DL, 4x Blasters) {Manning Quadgun for AA}

Troops
- 9 Kabalite
----- Raider (DL, FF, NS, SR) {Duke goes here}
- 10 Kabalite (Splinter Cannon)
----- Raider (DL, FF, NS, SR)

Fast Attack
- 9x Reavers (3x Heat Lances)

- 10x Scourge (4x Heat Lances)

- 10x Scourge (4x Heat Lances)

Heavy Support
- 1x Ravager (3x DL, FF, NS, SP)

- 1x Ravager (3x DL, FF, NS, SP)

Fortifications
- Aegis with Quadgun

So I tried to synergize the list as well as I could with the centerpiece being the Scourges and Duke's ability to DS vehicles.  I thought about keeping the Scourges and a/both Ravagers in reserves, depending on deployment.  When they come in (hopefully on the same turn) drop them in melta range (if applicable) around high priority targets.  Then turbo boost the bikes at the landing spot to saturate the area to give more survivability and Bladevane some poor smucks on the way.  The Ravagers may drop behind their line depending on deployment, if not; drop them on the opposite flank and push the Raiders with them.

If all goes well, I'm looking at a huge impact.

Now the one con I'm struggling with is the possible conflicting interest with Reavers.  I've read many of Mushkilla's BRs and I'm essentially modifying some of his strategies.  It may be safer and more consistent to mass Reavers in those slots.  Granted Scourges are more shooty than them but less mobile.  Also blast templates will wreak this. And if I don't kill my priority, I'm toast.

Anyway, any comments?  I'm not set in stone on this build, as I don't own any Scourges.
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Delvian
Hellion
Delvian

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Join date : 2012-12-16

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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 15 2013, 00:07

There isn't a lot to claim you any objectives, and if you are starting lots of units in reserve, then the troop choices will draw a lot of fire at the start of the game. Sure, as a DE player you won't generally claim objectives till late game, but 2 units of troops will probably lose their ability to boost up and be forced to slog it across to get them. At T3 5+, that's mincemeat!

I haven't been a huge fan of deep striking Ravagers etc. I find that it's at least 1 turn they aren't shooting, plus they are super fast, so can use cover and manoeuvre into an awesome position anyway. An excellent mentality for DE is to use speed and range to pick off heavy weapons and armour. Then move in for the kill with the splinter rack gunboats, scourges etc.

On the topic of scourges, I think they are great Smile very versatile if your running them with haywires as well, but bare in mind they will take damage if shot at, so I agree with you, your deep striking plan needs to wipe out anything that can shoot back! Also bare in mind space if you have that many units arriving via deep strike (and needing to be within range). A deep strike mishap would not be nice!

I'd leave the quad gun Trueborn out of it. A HUGE amount of points for that unit right there, and I don't think they would ever provide a return. I've never been a fan of fortifications for DE as they are too static. I know it makes sense to have some form of anti air, and it's something I have thought about continuously, bit I just don't think it works. Either take a flyer to shoot other flyers down, or ignore them altogether.

Lastly, have a read of this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/%7EThe_Kabal_Template%7E_A_Competitive_Guide_%28By_Ketara%29

Helped me when I was starting out big time.
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Laughingcarp
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Laughingcarp

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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 15 2013, 01:31

What Delvian said.
Deep Striking 10-model units is a serious teleport-into-the-bottom-of-the-ocean accident waiting to happen.
But, if it works, you win. It's a serious risk-reward play.
Would you consider dropping 5 scourges in exchange for a Haywire Blaster equipped Talos? Adds to the haywire, removes unit footprint from the deep-strikers, and is tough as nails.
https://www.thedarkcity.net/t8168-talos-fitout

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Smokeydubbs
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Smokeydubbs

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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 15 2013, 05:24

Thanks for the feedback. But yea, DSing Raiders/Ravagers isn't optimal due to it's speed.

About the Quadgun Trueborn, the initial plan was to put a couple DL back there sniping with a couple of blasters for close armored protection. But it is a large investment for such a menial job. I would like to have a flyer and I could fit 2 razorwings for the investment in the Quadgun.
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SERAFF
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 15 2013, 06:49

I tried a roster with 2 big scourge squads and 2 troops chioces in a 2000 points tournament. I won 2 games from 5. When I met necrons it was a total fail, 2 other lost games were quite close to a draw.

Now I see, that scourges are not as good as you could think. They are not he worst fast attack choice, but not the best.

Drop your trueborns and quad gun - It's very hard to hurt an enemy flyer with that gun emplacement. Moreover it is useless when there a lot of flyers. If you want scourges you can take one 5 man squad with heat lances. But you will never regret, if for the rest of points you will take troops on venoms and raiders. A unit of splinterborns on a venom would be very nice with the Duke as well.

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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 15 2013, 10:56

Trueborn with a quadgun are not that bad of a setup. They are at least somewhat of a deterrent to flyers.

That said, I would not use it in that configuration. Use three Trueborn with two splinter cannons. Put the one without cannon on the quadgun. They are cheap, provide a solid fire base and are quite annoying for your opponent to get rid of. Just go to ground whenever shot at for a 2+ cover save, as this won't affect your interceptor shooting.
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SERAFF
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 15 2013, 11:13

Splinterborns at quad gun it is a bad idea unless you are firing at flying monsters. You will waste 12 poisoned (3+ with Duke!!) shots trying to take out enemy flyer.
I would better place there a unit of common warriors with a blaster and dark lance and would make sure, that these guys control an objective as there is a small chance of getting skyfire nexus. So you will shoot your DL and blaster at full BS.


Last edited by SERAFF on Fri Nov 15 2013, 11:30; edited 1 time in total
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Delvian
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Delvian

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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 15 2013, 11:20

Scourges aren't the most competitive unit in the codex. You'de get more bang for your buck with Venoms & Trueborn and/or Reavers. That said, they are great models, relatively cheap to buy (in terms of £ & $), and definitely have a competitive use if the rest of your army compliments them. I'd probably say that 20 of them is a tad too much though

@Mandor wrote:
Trueborn with a quadgun are not that bad of a setup. They are at least somewhat of a deterrent to flyers.

That said, I would not use it in that configuration. Use three Trueborn with two splinter cannons. Put the one without cannon on the quadgun. They are cheap, provide a solid fire base and are quite annoying for your opponent to get rid of. Just go to ground whenever shot at for a 2+ cover save, as this won't affect your interceptor shooting.
Having 3 Trueborn manning a quad-gun is asking for trouble. With hardly any ablative wounds, it won't take much to shift them, even with a 2+ save. Plus, if they go to ground, then they can only fire snap shots, making the quad-gun almost useless. If the opposing player wanted to bring a flyer on, make the Trueborn go to ground and job done.
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Mandor
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 15 2013, 17:51

@SERAFF wrote:
Splinterborns at quad gun it is a bad idea unless you are firing at flying monsters. You will waste 12 poisoned (3+ with Duke!!) shots trying to take out enemy flyer.
I would better place there a unit of common warriors with a blaster and dark lance and would make sure, that these guys control an objective as there is a small chance of getting skyfire nexus. So you will shoot your DL and blaster at full BS.
You will not. The flyer you will target at the end of your enemy's movement phase with interceptor. In your own shooting phase, you are free to target something else with your poison shots.

If you're not targeting anything with interceptor, you can focus on any non-vehicle unit and fire 12 poison shots and four twin-linked strength 7 shots into it. That's quite a lot of firepower.

@Delvian wrote:
Having 3 Trueborn manning a quad-gun is asking for trouble. With hardly any ablative wounds, it won't take much to shift them, even with a 2+ save. Plus, if they go to ground, then they can only fire snap shots, making the quad-gun almost useless. If the opposing player wanted to bring a flyer on, make the Trueborn go to ground and job done.
I disagree. Your opponent has to choose to either target the quadgun (T7, 2W, 4+ cover for around 50pts) or the Trueborn themselves which could go to ground for a 2+ cover save and are about 50 points. That's quite a bit of firepower he has to "waste" to get rid of that cheap a unit. Also, the quadgun firing interceptor shots at the end of your opponent's movement phase will never be affected by going to ground, because going to ground ends at the end of your turn and you go to ground during your opponent's shooting phase.

If he targets the Trueborn and they do not live, you are free to move anything else on the quadgun the turn after to get more interceptor shots in your opponent's turn.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 15 2013, 20:07

A traditional way to run scourges back in 5th was in a WWP list with a couple of units of 5 scourges with heatlances to deep strike in and blow up any tanks that tried to block the portal.

Not so much now... you'd be better served by trueborn.
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Nappen
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Nappen

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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 17 2013, 17:05

When I use the scourges now, I put 5 in a team, put them into high ground cover if possible and snipe whatever I can. HWBs if it is armor or the Shardcarbines to the infantry with the HWBs still at least getting a shot. Often though the enemy can just avoid them-but they do help funnel the enemy to where I want them to go. Expensive but not entirely ineffective.

That said, i am finding in 6th edition the reavers are just better in the fast attack slot. though the increasing amount of "ignores cover" is making them much more frustrating to use.

Every time I have tried to deep strike scourges it has ended in disaster.
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Kamasutra69
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 15 2013, 17:20

Mandrakes infiltrated to the center to prevent scouts, or enemy infiltrators from the cover that is usually present.

2 Haemonculi with trueborn in a raider one with a WWP to zoom up, jump out, and throw down the WWP. Turn 2 your in business, and your scourges can threaten the entire table with haywire blasters from there, reavers can come on turbo boosting, and put their blade vanes to immediate use without being shot up first, etc.

Plus with the Trueborn you have FnP and a solid fire base right in the middle. Second Haemonulus joins the mandrakes to allow them to shoot and also have FnP.
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Expletive Deleted
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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 15 2013, 20:12

I'm with Nappen and I think I've posted it in another thread somewhere, but I never deep strike scourges anymore. You never know when they're going to come in, and if they come in you never know where they're going to land, so you never know if they're going to survive the fall, or survive more than one turn because they might just scatter into the crosshairs of every model your opponent has. In other words it's too random.

But, they do have a 4+ armor save and can move 12". With 3 shardcarbines and 2 haywire blasters you can mop up wounded units. Possibly getting a pain token. Making them even more surprisingly tough. When your ravager strips 2 hull points off that Las-Predator, you appreciate having the scourges there to get that last point.

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PostSubject: Re: Deep Striking Scouges   Deep Striking Scouges I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 23 2013, 04:54

I still deepstrike mine, but I play in mainly 1000 point games and only run five with two heat lances. I pretty much use them to kill tanks on rear or side armor with melta. Somebody usually leave a tank back near some piece of terrain that I deepstrike into (I find with the 4+ armor save I at worst lose one, and only rarely).
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