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bveazey
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PostSubject: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 08:07

I have noticed a trend in my local games.

I do not do well versus special characters. It seems that everyone has a 2+ invulnerable save and several wounds. Go ahead and throw feel no pain in there too.

I read lots of forum posts about how an Archon and Incubi in large numbers can be "too killy." This combination is in my opinion the best H2H options we have in our list and I have lots of trouble killing Typhys, Abadon, hive tyrants, whatever the orc guy is called. What gives? How do you do against guys like these?

I mean I know to shoot at H2H and H2H shooties, but its getting ridiculous now. Statistically I should have killed these models after all the splintershots and klaive wounds.



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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 09:26

2+ invulnerable save seems very dodgy to me... as far as I'm aware there's only 3 ways in the game of getting a 2+ invulnerable save, and they all have restrictions:

Dark Eldar shadowfield (2++ until you fail it, upon which point it goes away forever)
Daemons (stacking Forewarning and the Grimoire of the Damned, not guaranteed to go off even if you get the requisite power; alternatively Grimoire and the right result on the warp storm table)
Ghazkull (2++ on the turn he calls his Waagh!)

None of the things you've listed apart from Ghaz can get a 2+ invulnerable save, and his is very limited in scope. Hive Tyrants I don't believe can get a 2+ save at all, and are bizarrely one of the easiest things in the Tyranid list to kill as our poison makes a mockery of their high toughness, and they only have 4 wounds (can get access to FnP with Biomancy powers)... provided he's not flying and doesn't have FnP, you can get through him faster than 5 tactical marines.

Your problem might be that you're throwing the Incubi and Archon against some of the toughest things around; and things that can easily splat your Incubi on the return swing.

What I would suggest, is using speed. With the exception of the hive tyrant, and only if they're flying hive tyrants, nothing can get close to you. Ghaz will probably be in a trukk or battlewagon, and those things are very squishy to darklight weapons. Get yourself into a position where they can't lay down the pain.

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 09:42

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
Hive Tyrants I don't believe can get a 2+ save at all
They can get a 2+ save with the (expensive) Armoured Shell upgrade but they have no way of getting an invulnerable save as far as I know.

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bveazey
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 09:45

So my incubi should be killing Typhus pretty easily then if he cant get an invulnerable? AP 2 shreds an armor of 2+ without that. I feel I have been cheated
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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 10:00

Typhus has an invulnerable, but it won't be a 2+. Probably 4+, as that's the stock for characters of that ilk. You have to carve your way through a 4+ invulnerable followed by feel no pain.

Didn't know about Armoured Shell, but I assume it's prohibitively expensive as I've never seen anyone use it.

In general, though, most invulnerable saves are of the 5+/4+ sort of nature - tends to be 5+ if it's 'naturally occurring' like Daemons, or 4+ if it's wargear (Iron Halo, Tau shield generator); rare access to a 3+ (unless you're a Space Marine who has access to the rarest-of-the-rare, only-one-per-chapter-in-the-galaxy, coincidentally-its-here-oh-would-you-look-at-that Eternal Warrior granting storm shield), and 2+ invulnerable saves are rarer still and always have some kind of strings attached.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 10:16

Yeah, Typhus is just going to pack a 2+/5++ from his Terminator armor and a FNP save as well. At Toughness 5 with 4 Wounds he'd certainly slow down a few Incubi, but a Huskblade Archon dueling him should saw him apart pretty easy, and a large group of Incubi should do about the same.

Bringing up Ghaz and Abaddon is also a little...well, iffy. Those two are generally talked about as *literally* the toughest h2h options in the game. Yeah, 1 v 1 with them is a dangerous place to be, but DE can still win those battles as long as you can soften them up prior to your elite combat squad slamming into them. Loads of poison shots kill Ghaz as well as anything in the game, in many ways we are one of the armies best able to handle him or Abaddon because we have lethal shooting against them and can combine it with solid tarpits (wyches) or actual potential h2h threats (Archon + Incubi)

Yes, Ghaz, Abbadon, I'd toss Lysander in there too, Mephiston as well. Those are literally some of the single most potent models for assault in the game. Since the Archon is not top of the food chain (he is toughness 3 and non Eternal Warrior) he is always going to have some things more dangerous than him. That said, the Archon is not a total embarrassment versus those super heavyweight characters - he will get to swing first against any of them, and his sword can punch through their armor well, and if he has increased his strength via soul trap and/or drugs + furious charge he can even hurt them semi-reliably. You just cannot expect him to manage to solo them - because barring amazing dice, he can't.

The best way to deal with Death Stars as DE is to avoid them. Limit their mobility by shooting apart their transport asap, and force them to walk after you. Then keep moving away and shooting them or other things. The time to deal with them is, hopefully, near the end of the game when you can have your entire army shoot them and then assault them with some stuff. Quite often, the best strategy is simply not to even bother with them, and kill everything else and play keep away.

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bveazey
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 10:46

Yeah the hive tyrant is the easiest of the afforementioned for me to take down.

Typhus is what really pissed me off though. He challenged my archon everytime too. Those seem like some screwy mechanics for that.

Ill jsut maneuver around them and ignore them the entire time. I did try tarpitting with wyches once but that 4++ doesnt really help much with tarpitting. I tend to roll bad

I appreciate all the advice!!
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 11:08

@bveazey wrote:
Yeah the hive tyrant is the easiest of the afforementioned for me to take down.

Typhus is what really pissed me off though.  He challenged my archon everytime too.
Chaos characters have to issue and accept challenges whenever possible.

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bveazey
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 11:28

Yeah, I just dont understand the mechanics for challenges.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 11:39

Buy a Klaivex, when Typhus challenges have the Klaivex accept.

Or, honestly, just have the Archon accept since he is, frankly, quite capable of killing Typhus.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 11:49

@Thor665 wrote:
Buy a Klaivex, when Typhus challenges have the Klaivex accept.

Or, honestly, just have the Archon accept since he is, frankly, quite capable of killing Typhus.
It's actually almost exactly equal in terms of probability. Archon on the charge has a 44% chance of inflicting the one unsaved wound he needs to kill Typhus. Typhus has a 45% chance (using the average roll for his daemon weapon's attacks) of doing the same in return. After the first round though, the Archon goes down to 37%.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 14:39

The above appears to support my statement.
Also Combat Drugs and pain tokens can make the odds even better.

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MFive
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 22:48

i just wanted to hop on and say that grey knight warding staves grant a 2+ invuln save in CC
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2013, 23:10

I'd forgotten about those, but you are right. I will say I don't recall even during the height of the GK rampage seeing too many of those in any lists equipped to anything that would cause an Archon pause.

So that brings the 2++ holders to;
Dark Eldar shadowfield (2++ until you fail it, upon which point it goes away forever)
Daemons (stacking Forewarning and the Grimoire of the Damned, not guaranteed to go off even if you get the requisite power; alternatively Grimoire and the right result on the warp storm table)
Ghazkull (2++ on the turn he calls his Waagh!)
Any given GK character in CC.

Very Happy
Seems about right!

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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2013, 01:41

they where never to prevalent due to the fact they they where still AP3(now they are, back in 5th though ...) , and 25+ pts, iirc, the grand master cost 40pts, rather high for a 200pt generic char, when combined with the psy cannon ... now you are looking at 300 pts for a single model, and when you have the dread knight looking at you .... yea ....
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2013, 02:11

I thought they were only about 20 points, honestly.
But, yeah, there were other nemesis force options for so much cheaper, and most Knights seemed to sweat being shot to death more than assaulted to death, usually.

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bveazey
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2013, 06:19

Those statistics are based off an Archon carrying what? Venom Blade?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2013, 06:22

Huskblade and Shadowfield plus a 2nd cc weapon for the extra attack.

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bveazey
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2013, 06:59

so thats 6 attacks on the charge?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2013, 07:13

Yep

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bveazey
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2013, 07:38

i like it



ty
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2013, 11:10

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Huskblade and Shadowfield plus a 2nd cc weapon for the extra attack.
Also, his odds would improve if he had combat drugs on him - either his odds getting better or Typhus' odds getting worse.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2013, 11:32

@Thor665 wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Huskblade and Shadowfield plus a 2nd cc weapon for the extra attack.
Also, his odds would improve if he had combat drugs on him - either his odds getting better or Typhus' odds getting worse.
Yeah, those extra Run dice rolls will really help Very Happy 

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2013, 12:58

By that logic you might as well suggest that Eldar Psyker powers are a joke because Death Mission exists Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Special Characters   Special Characters I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2013, 21:58

depending on what you roll, you may end up agreeing with him ^_^
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