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 Archon or Succubus?

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MordredBloodyhand
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PostSubject: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2013, 01:32

Trying to decide whether to use a succubus or an archon to lead my Incubi in a raider.
What are the pros and cons of either from your perspective? Im guessing the PGL on the Archon is the deal breaker for the Succubus?
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FullDE
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2013, 03:29

The main advantage to the succubus is she's really cheap even tooled up. Plus if you are lucky the combat drugs can help you get a starting pain token.
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Dark_Kindred
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2013, 03:36

Archon: Depending on loadout, can tank nasty shooting. Can give Assault Grenades.
Succubus: Huge HQ savings. Not having Assault Grenades sometimes works out to your advantage.

I normally run with a Succubus and I can honestly say it's never been a problem. I don't like the regular Archon because of its cost coupled with the fact that the Archon doesn't really multiply the force Incubi can bring to bear. If I want to use my Archon model, I would rather run Vect for 1st turn advantage and Preferred Enemy.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2013, 04:29

To me the PGL is the deal breaker. You can feel free to tell me of all the times you have played games where enemy infantry units were not hugging cover like there was no tomorrow.

I know with the people I play and the big tourneys I go to this is NOT the case.

Therefore, if I am fielding an elite assault unit whose big advantage is their number of attacks and initiative (since otherwise they are slightly weedier marines) Yeah, I want to make sure I get to swing at Init and also maybe have some extra protection from overwatch. I think it's crazy to choose anything else. Whoop-dee-doo, I saved 20 points versus an otherwise identically equipped Archon with a PGL in order to gain +1 WS (that will almost never matter) +1 Init (because at least he'll strike at Init order) and -1 Leadership, and also I get to eat Tau Overwatch and let the enemy swing first. Even if I only lose 1 Incubi (22 points) I'll still have saved... -2 points! Huzzah!

Doesn't sell me, really.
I even like the Succubus and think she's a great unit.
Just, y'know, not with Incubi.

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Delvian
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 01 2013, 15:32

Definitely recommend the Archon

The phantasm is a huge bonus. There aren't many infantry units that can swing at initiative 5 with AP2, so you have to take advantage of this. Incubi don't have an invulnerable save, so if you are sending them at the enemies nasties (I.e. Terminators), they need to take them out before they hit back.

Also, the Archon with a shadow field is more resilient than a Succubus. Considering the incubi can take on heavy hitters, you want the Archon doing the same. Incubi fight the terminator retinue, Archon takes out the enemy Warlord, for example. Fighting against a power fist or war scythe etc and your looking at decapitated Succubus at T3 on a save of 1,2 or 3. With the Shadowfield, a 2+ invulnerable is just great.

Sure it can get expensive with all the toys, but maybe just go for a shadow field, phantasm and a venom blade?
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 01 2013, 23:11

For the cost of one Archon you get TWO Succubi.
Discuss....

If my enemy wants to lock his assaulty troops in cover, I'm fine with that, they can sit there all day for all I care.
Eventualy, they must come out of cover and then I will chew them up.

4 incubi
1 Succubi with agoniser
Venom w/ extra cannon

x2

RARRRRRRRR

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Delvian
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 01 2013, 23:26

Interesting point doubling up a Succubus, but sitting your elite unit in a transport waiting for that enemy unit to leave cover, they are probably going to get shot to pieces! Then they will come out of cover!

Also, the cover could also have an objective that they are holding.

Certainly a point in having 2 Succubus, but maybe with Wyches?
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 02 2013, 16:48

I admit my skills are diminished since 3rd... And I'm still playing an assault army with models I think look cool (mandrakes), so this probably won't take on Taudar... But in sixth I have enjoyed running two Succubi with squads of five Wyches in a Raider. I can't remember who recommended the load out, but it is great. Two is even better.

I end up rushing the front and trying to take out takes with haywire grenades. This usually ends up with a few squads left out in the open, so somebody is gonna get aced.

But, with two small cheap squads, I don't mind one getting aced. An Archon seems expensive and counter productive for this approach. However, I do wonder about a cheap Archon (maybe just a venom blade) to have the higher leadership...

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 02 2013, 21:14

I tend to favor the good old homunculi personally. FNP helps the Incubi a great deal against exploding raiders and shooting, is a great detachable overwatch bullet sponge and it's the cheapest option which lets you take more incubi. Sure he's just a pain token caddy and a bullet sponge, but do incubi really need to be more killy?
Only do this when you have another character as warlord of course.
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Balisong
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 02 2013, 21:23

Why not both?

FYI: I'm not a fan of Haemonculi in Assault Units as he removes fleet.
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Dark_Kindred
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 03 2013, 19:15

@Balisong wrote:
Why not both?

FYI: I'm not a fan of Haemonculi in Assault Units as he removes fleet.
You separate the Haemonculus from the unit prior to assault, leaving the Pain Token with them. You then launch an assault with the Haemonculus beforehand to absorb Overwatch.

You do not have the Fleet problem, you have negated an Overwatch Problem, you have a wound sponge (vehicle explodes or whatever), and you have Feel No Pain.

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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 03 2013, 19:21

Valid tactic, but you have to realize that in doing so, you practically concede a victory point in some missions.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 03 2013, 19:28

With it being an HQ choice, that means from the missions in the book only 1 in 6 will have this matter as far as VPs go unless the Haem happens to be the very first unit that dies...which, since it's part of an assault launch seems unlikely.

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Delvian
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 03 2013, 21:24

Not sure the solo Haemy as an overwatch sponge would work. I may be wrong, but I thought you declare all assaults and the enemy unit picks which unit to shoot at for overwatch (so could therefore pick the incubi)
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Dark_Kindred
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 03 2013, 21:51

@Delvian wrote:
Not sure the solo Haemy as an overwatch sponge would work. I may be wrong, but I thought you declare all assaults and the enemy unit picks which unit to shoot at for overwatch (so could therefore pick the incubi)
You pick when assaults begin and are resolved. Basically, you declare your charge with the Haemonculus first and force some tough decisions before you move to the next step in the Charge sub-phase, Declare Next Charge, in which You choose another unit and declare another charge, should you so desire.

Although though I'm just some random player, it's been an important strategy at times when trying to crack Imperial Guard platoons and Tau firing lines. It seems like a good way to mitigate Tau Supporting Fire because you multiply your charge elements and force actual decision making with Overwatch.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 03 2013, 22:29

@Delvian wrote:
Not sure the solo Haemy as an overwatch sponge would work. I may be wrong, but I thought you declare all assaults and the enemy unit picks which unit to shoot at for overwatch (so could therefore pick the incubi)
Nope. Charges are resolved one at a time.

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Delvian
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 03 2013, 22:46

Yep, just read the rule book, been missing out on that trick Razz
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Balisong
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 05 2013, 06:34

Just ran the Archon + Succubus tonight in my HarleyStar and OMG did it own the game.

Was a 1500 2 v 2 and the unit wiped all the HQs on the enemy side.

I handled challenges with the Archon while the Succubus and her Agonizer wiped the marines off the board. It was Epic...

Had a Farseer that I used to accompany the Unit and she kept prescience up the entire game. Was just sickening.
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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 05 2013, 11:01

Haven't you managed to fail Veil of Tears once?)
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Balisong
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 05 2013, 11:34

Yes.

Harley's were wiped out in Turn 4 because I rolled Perils on it.

Bolter fire then took out the Shadowfield, and I wound up Looking out Sir! a whole bunch of Dakka.

Only rolled a single Invul save on the Harlies... Razz
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 05 2013, 12:04

@Balisong wrote:
Yes.

Harley's were wiped out in Turn 4 because I rolled Perils on it.
This is one reason I just can't bring myself to invest in Harlequins. Fail a single psychic test (on Ld9) and they are, quite simply, dead. For such expensive models that's just too risky.

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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 05 2013, 12:20

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Balisong wrote:
Yes.

Harley's were wiped out in Turn 4 because I rolled Perils on it.
This is one reason I just can't bring myself to invest in Harlequins. Fail a single psychic test (on Ld9) and they are, quite simply, dead. For such expensive models that's just too risky.
Put Grisly Trophies on one or two Raiders, keep them empty and flat out them next to the Shadowseer every turn. Your opponent will either waste fire power on the Raiders or you will get a twinlinked psychic test.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 05 2013, 12:24

@Mandor wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Balisong wrote:
Yes.

Harley's were wiped out in Turn 4 because I rolled Perils on it.
This is one reason I just can't bring myself to invest in Harlequins. Fail a single psychic test (on Ld9) and they are, quite simply, dead. For such expensive models that's just too risky.
Put Grisly Trophies on one or two Raiders, keep them empty and flat out them next to the Shadowseer every turn. Your opponent will either waste fire power on the Raiders or you will get a twinlinked psychic test.
Good idea but you're adding even more points to an already expensive unit in order to make them effective.

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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 05 2013, 14:15

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Good idea but you're adding even more points to an already expensive unit in order to make them effective.
Agreed, but the raider itself is not a bad investment in terms of LoS blocking, impairing enemy movement or even its Dark Lance. The extra cost is the 5 points you have to upgrade that Raider with Grisly Trophies. Buy it with some splinter/lanceborn or a 10 man warrior squad you stick in cover and use the raider as you'd normally use one in addition to supporting your Harlequins.
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PostSubject: Re: Archon or Succubus?   Archon or Succubus? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 05 2013, 19:48

At those levels of deathstarring, it's better to grab Eldar as primary and take Seer Council. On bikes. If you don't fail psy tests with re-rolls often, they're ultimate death star.
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