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commandersasha
Mr Believer
Shadowharte
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Shadowharte
Hellion
Shadowharte

Posts : 76
Join date : 2013-05-14

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PostSubject: 2,000 points of Fail   2,000 points of Fail I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 12 2013, 10:05

HQ
Archon-160
Huskblade, PGL, Shadow Field, Soul Trap

Elite
Incubi-163
4 Incubi
Venom w/ Nightshields and extra SC

Trueborn-183
4 trueborn with blasters
Venom w/ Nightshields and extra SC

Trueborn-183
4 trueborn with blasters
Venom w/ Nightshields and extra SC

Troop
Kabalite Warriors-180
10 Warriors w/ 1 SC
Raider w/ Nightshields and Splinter Racks

Kabalite Warriors-180
10 Warriors w/ 1 SC
Raider w/ Nightshields and Splinter Racks

Kabalite Warriors-180
10 Warriors w/ 1 SC
Raider w/ Nightshields and Splinter Racks

Wyches-203
8 Wych w/ HWG
1 Hekatrix w/ HWG, PGL, and Venom Blade

Fast Attack
Reavers-162
6 Reavers w/ 2 Blasters

Heavy Support
Ravager-125
Ravager w/ NS, FF

Ravager-125
Ravager w/ NS, FF

Razorwing Jetfighter-155
Razorwing w/FF


I used this list last night and got utterly destroyed. I only managed to kill 8 Dark Angel bikes from his Ravenwing list. I don't like to blame the dice, but it was really sad to see the rolls. My reserves did not come in on turn 2 and game was over top of turn 3. He had 1 reserve that did not come in, but had two attack bikes that came in and did nothing. All the damage was done with what was already on the board. This was the first match above 1500 for me and it was very discouraging to see the amount of firepower he could put out compared to what I could. The only other things I have remaining at my disposal for any near future would be 1 more wych box, 1 raider, and one box of mandrakes. Is there any way to change the list around with what I have to be viable at 2k? I do not want to ally and do not have the funds for beast units or coven units currently.

Edit: Also wanted to point out that his two Land Speeders and his vehicle that gives out shrouded and stealth all stayed on the board all game. I only forced 1 save with lances against the vehicles all game.


Last edited by Shadowharte on Sat Oct 12 2013, 10:07; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Extra bit of info)
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Mr Believer
Wych
Mr Believer

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Join date : 2011-09-11
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PostSubject: Re: 2,000 points of Fail   2,000 points of Fail I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 12 2013, 11:14

What sort of stuff did the Dark Angel player have in his list? And what was the terrain like? A fairly common problem for Dark Eldar is that opponents often don't like to put much terrain in the board, regardless of who they're playing, but especially with us. Sometimes it's like they've never heard of line of sight blocking terrain!

Your list does look pretty fun and balanced though, it sounds like you had some pretty poor luck. A couple of things I would say about it are that Wyches are best fielded in two squads from what I've found. Your opponent will see the one squad coming with their little tank crippling grenades and shoot them down as soon as they show their faces - rushing a vehicle with two squads forces the player to either split his fire or just take down one, meaning the other has a much better chance of getting there. It's more of a points sink, definitely, but one squad won't get much done. The other thing is that the Razorwing isn't that great. It was better when it could unload everything before it got shot down, now you don't get to fire all the missiles before it's downed, and even if you do they aren't that great. For the fragility of the vehicle, it should really have more offensive capabilities. A disintegrator Ravager might work better in the anti-infantry role the Razorwing was designed for, and it'll be cheaper, easier to hide, easier to position and probably kill more stuff.

I guess the Archon attracted a lot of fire and never made into close combat? It'll always be the case with this unit, you have to be so careful with how you use it. If it gets there, it's amazing, but everyone knows what him and Incubi do with that setup so they stop them as a matter of extreme urgency. I wouldn't say don't use it, because they mince things when they make it into combat, but you have a lack of other things in the list that actually want to see combat, or even get that close. It's very easy to defend yourself against one AV 10 skimmer with two hull points when it's the only thing coming at you. That might require a shift of thinking rather than restructuring the entire list, but they would probably have better luck if they weren't the only threatening close combat unit.


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Shadowharte
Hellion
Shadowharte

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PostSubject: Re: 2,000 points of Fail   2,000 points of Fail I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 12 2013, 14:47

The Archon Venom got wrecked and left him and his incubi stranded on top of some impassible terrain on turn 3. I was kind of worried about charging his bikes with a 5 man unit. He was using a banner that gave all bolt guns salvo 4....every bike had 4 shots minus the plasma bikes. He also had a librarian with perfect timing which destroyed multiple raiders since I did not purchase FF for everything. I only placed the Razorwing in because that's all I had left. I do also have a 5 man unit of scourges I forgot to mention up top.

There was plenty of terrain. We had a landing pad, fortress of redemption, trenches, craters, barricades. Fortifications minus the ADL with quad he spend points on were deactivated for easier play. I had never played that many points prior to yesterday. Wych raider got immobilized first turn (he had first turn). One of my main problems was the scout move+first turn movement placed him right in my face.

I would prefer a CC based list, but with overwatch and changes to reserve and WWP I am not sure how to go about it. This was only my 2nd lost game since I started back, most of the players in my group complain about the amount of splinter fire, but I always thought of DE as more combat oriented with their initiative and all that. Was thinking about some hellions and beast packs for the future, but right now it is not so much of an option.


Last edited by Shadowharte on Sat Oct 12 2013, 14:48; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Looked like a wall of text that was annoying to read)
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Mr Believer
Wych
Mr Believer

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PostSubject: Re: 2,000 points of Fail   2,000 points of Fail I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 12 2013, 18:51

There are a lot of people on here, myself included, who would recommend Hellions - they're speedy and hit pretty hard, and with the Baron making them scoring they're even better. Dark Eldar can do close combat, but there's only really certain things in the list with high initiative that are actually good at it. Unfortunately it doesn't really matter if a Wych is going first in close combat if she fails to wound with her strength three attacks. I have had the situation before where a unit of ten of them have charged in, swung, failed to wound, taken a casualty or two and then broken and been swept. It's galling. Most of the time a decent sized unit will tie something up for a turn or two, but that's all.

If close combat is the way you want to go, Beastmasters and Hellions are probably the way to go about getting it. Wracks are pretty good too, it's fun to wound stuff that's bigger than you! Obviously that's something to think about for the future though Smile

Most of the players in your group complain about the amount of splinter fire? They know Dark Eldar are drug crazed slave raiders right? Complain about their ubiquitous 3+ armour save next time they whine about that Wink Dark Eldar are safer hanging back and shooting for a few turns before charging anything. In fact, they're probably safer not charging anything from what I've found - many is the time when I've focussed fire on a unit to weaken it before a charge and found my shooting to be overly effective, wiping them out or breaking them without the need to endure overwatch. Dark Eldar might not be the shootiest army out there (we're up there, but Eldar and Tau have even itchier trigger fingers than us) but we can direct and reposition our fire better than anyone.

Those scouting bikes in various marine builds have caused problems in every game I've seen them used in. White Scars, in particular, worry me immensely. I think you just have to accept against them that if they have first turn, they're probably going to wreck something unless there's a ton of terrain on the table. Against an army that depends on a powerful alpha strike, try castling up a little so everything can shoot them back for their insolence. They might think twice about whether they bother getting within range of you then. A disintegrator Ravager is good against bikers too. Wounds them on 4s and forces them to rely on their jink save. Keep it in reserve to let your lances pop transports against mechanised opponents, then bring it on and mow down the occupants. Against this kind of list, deploy it so it's safe, move it out and splatter stuff. I know I'm talking it up quite a lot, but it does have the potential to kill nine marines a turn. It won't, but it will reliably put wounds on infantry.

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Shadowharte
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: 2,000 points of Fail   2,000 points of Fail I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 12 2013, 19:56

Yea, I didn't know Dark Angel bikers had a scout move.....I immediately regretted my lack of knowledge.

The people in the group say I complain about my army when I point out something that is ridiculous...such as every vehicle being as fast as a fast skimmer without turbo boosting, or that overwatch screwed dark elder units, but did nothing except help marines.

I do love my loveable spiky soul traders though.

I will just have to learn more about each players army before I try to play high point matches.

I am also glad that my list wasn't total retard mode.
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commandersasha
Sybarite
commandersasha

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PostSubject: Re: 2,000 points of Fail   2,000 points of Fail I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 12 2013, 21:48

I have the same Archon build as you, and initially ran her with Incubi in a Venom; She rarely made it across the table, and if she did, was left with so few friends that she struggled.
Since trading the sportscar for a family-sized, and replacing the Incs for Grots, she has made it into combat every game; majority toughness 5 makes a HUGE difference to survivability!
I know you said you can't afford the Grot models, and they're ugly too (although check out the Grot thread for great alternatives), but I borrowed 4 of my friends Terminator models (40mm base) to try them out, I recommend you do the same.
If you're going to spend a lot on your Archon, he/she HAS to get into CC for it to be worthwhile!

Oh, and bike lists are horrid!
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Nighthawk
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PostSubject: Re: 2,000 points of Fail   2,000 points of Fail I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 14 2013, 22:02

It seems like forgetting that the bikes have a scout move is what lost you the game, not your army. If he was able to shoot you on turn 1 with bolters, shame on you, not your army. It happens to the best of us. Smile

For DE CC, I really like wracks w/ haemonculus. In my standard army I take 2 squads of wracks and 2 squads of warriors. Poison melee attacks will make quick work of bikes.

Be aware that Archon + Incubi (or Grots) screams "Shoot me first!" so you'll want to make that as difficult as possible for your opponent. Even if there isn't much terrain, hide the Archon's venom/raider behind one or 2 of your other venom/raiders.
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Phiandros
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PostSubject: Re: 2,000 points of Fail   2,000 points of Fail I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2013, 08:33

@Nighthawk wrote:
Be aware that Archon + Incubi (or Grots) screams "Shoot me first!" so you'll want to make that as difficult as possible for your opponent.  Even if there isn't much terrain, hide the Archon's venom/raider behind one or 2 of your other venom/raiders.
Or you overload the board with juicy targets. Can't shoot em all.

3 5 man wych squads in venoms going for your armor, 1 grot raider, 3 stock ravagers, warriorboats getting in rapid fire range etc etc. Force your opponent to make a choice and then you roll with his choice overloading certain parts of the field leaving slower armies in the dust. Forced decisions are tougher to make Very Happy
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jbwms713
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PostSubject: Re: 2,000 points of Fail   2,000 points of Fail I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2013, 14:15

First time I played DA Ravenwing, the Scout move caught me off guard too. Actually, I think it was "Ravenwing", because he only had the one big unit of bike with the Banner. It shredded something, then I shredded it right back (very different than having a full army pull that move, though).

So yeah, that was a huge deal in this game. Lesson learned, I'd say, to both of us. The real trick is not letting it happen again Wink

The list, to me, looks solid enough. There are some changes that could be made, but wouldn't necessarily have to be - I try to run at least 5 incubi when I do, and even then you have to be careful about what you assault (they're pricey, especially for not having grenades... sigh). Bleedin' PGL being so expensive on an Archon, grumble grumble... but I digress. I've lost games because of dice... it does happen on occasion. It's especially notable with Dark Eldar, given how having one legit bad round of dice can really cripple us, so don't get too discouraged. Especially if this was your first large game, give yourself a few to get used to the way things play at this level, and always remember to play to our strengths, and our enemy's weaknesses.
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Shadowharte
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: 2,000 points of Fail   2,000 points of Fail I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2013, 16:06

Yea, I just assumed the bikes were the same as all SM bikes, but SUPRISE!!. Anyways, I used the same list against a chaos player last Friday. I trampled him pretty hardcore, but in his defense I don't think his list was optimal. He had Abadon and Typhus, Typhus died to Incubi and slayed them at the same time and Abadon died by my Archon at the same time as killing him. Only things I worried about was his Havoc squad and deepstriking obliterators. Night fight first turn let me move entire army to right side of board to wipe out a plague marine squad. Next turn I wiped out havocs, obliterators got one venom, but none of his other stuff could reach me cause of nightshields and he didn't want to leave cover. I then proceeded to table him properly laughing as he needed 18 in range cause he was spamming 24 in ranged plasma guns and bolters.
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bveazey
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PostSubject: Re: 2,000 points of Fail   2,000 points of Fail I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 14 2013, 11:14

That list looks very close to mine. I dont often get wrecked but when I do its because of Marines. The last game I played was versus chaos. Typhus is a douche bag. So is Abbadon.
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