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 Defensive gernade question

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MurDok
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PostSubject: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 08 2013, 22:10

Hi again guys, got another stupid question. I was playing my Space Wolf friend again and this situation came up. He charged my unit that had a PGL, so I had to tell him that it negates his bonus attacks so he asks "Does that cancel just the bonus from the charge or is that all bonus attacks including the special ability &/or wargear attacks?" We came to the conclusion that it was all bonus attacks including special abilities and wargear. Is this right? We like to "forge the narrative" alot so it made sense to negate everything, but I hate thinking that I'm cheating him in close combat. So what (if any) is the actual correct ruling on this. As always all thought and opinions are welcomed and thanked.
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 08 2013, 22:25

It says " bonus attacks from charging ", so I would say it means you simply don't get +1 for charging. I have also checked the Rage special rule, that says " +2 attacks instead of the usual +1 ", so, again I would say that you get no extra attacks as you are negating the original +1 and therefore, by extension, the second bonus attack as well. Any other wargear or special rules I can't speak about specifically as I don't have the SW codex. I would generally say that as long as a rule isn't dependent on having charged then they're OK.
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MurDok
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PostSubject: Re: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 00:21

Gotcha, after looking at his codex most of the special abilities replace the +1 when charging with either +d3 attacks or +2 attacks. So I looks like indeed he'll loose a lot his attacks if he charges into units equipped with d-grenades. It's no wonder why he doesn't like charging my Archon then.... Espically since the Archin has been rolling with Lelith lately lol

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Seelenberührer
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PostSubject: Re: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 00:41

Yeh, that's how I'd interpret it, too. As long as the bonus attacks REPLACE the ordinary +1 for charging, then the PGL should negate it.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 15:09

yup, so defensive grenades neuter those blood claws

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MurDok
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PostSubject: Re: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 15:19

Oh for sure. I think if my math holds true, the blood claws loose an average of 6+ attacks when charging against the grenades.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 15:20

Death Company aren't too keen on them either.

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Obyiscus
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PostSubject: Re: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 16:24

How are they losing 6+ attacks? My math shows they lose an average of two (because they all lose their +2 attacks on the charge).

Be careful neutering Blood Claws, that's how they become Grey Hunters (the real threat Razz)
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LSK
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PostSubject: Re: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 16:47

is "hammer of wrath" considered a "bonus attack" ?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 16:51

@LSK wrote:
is "hammer of wrath" considered a "bonus attack" ?
Personally I'd say no. It's entirely separate to their normal attacks.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 17:13

Count Adhemar is correct.
All the defensive grenades do is remove the 'bonus attack' from charging.
HoW is an 'additional attack' granted from a special rule whose only requirement is that the unit has charged.

If you look at Page 24 you'll see there are 3 ways to get attacks beyond your A characteristic;

1. Bonus attack from charging
2. Additional weapon.
3. Other bonuses (special rules and wargear that confer additional attacks)

The *only* one that Defensive grenades affect is #1.
Hammer of Wrath falls under #3
Certain Space Wolf abilities are affected because they trigger off #1 and replace that effect, so they lose them because the grenades cancel #1 and prevent the abilities meeting their activation requirements.

Make sense?

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 17:51

You have succinctly explained what I was trying to put across Thor, thanks.
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 22:00

I asked this question on Dakka months ago and there was a lot of debate (surprise surprise) on Dakka concerning HoW. There was agreement on the normal +1 charge bonus attack and Rage but HoW was debated. I, personally, agree with Thor's rationale behind keeping HoW.

Also effects like Furious Charge would remain in place as well.
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LSK
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PostSubject: Re: Defensive gernade question   Defensive gernade question I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 22:42

Rage: #1 - HoW: #3
thank you Thor

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