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 3+ cover save for vehicles?

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notts
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PostSubject: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 08 2013, 20:45

I've seen mention of this in a couple of topics, but as far as I can see, the only way we could get a 3+ cover save is if going flat out while it's dark, for stealth/shroud.

going flat out and being in a bit of cover wouldnt boost it to 3+, right?
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PostSubject: Re: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 08 2013, 21:55

That's right it would not.
However if you can arrange the facing that would be shot at to be completely obscured, the model gets +1 to it's cover save and the shots are resolved against the visible facing instead.

(edit) Oh, the +1 only applies to the obscuring terrain though, so has no affect on the jink save. But would work with ruins.
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PostSubject: Re: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 07:41

Vehicle obscured to 25% by a fortification has a 3+ cover save. That is indicated in the cover save chart on page 18 in the BRB.
Under fortification we could understand Bastion, as ADL and Landing Pad have their own cover save rules.

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PostSubject: Re: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 13:16

@notts wrote:
going flat out and being in a bit of cover wouldnt boost it to 3+, right?
It can be, according to the following articles here:

http://lkhero.blogspot.fr/2012/07/de-getting-best-out-of-cover.html
http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/the-truth-about-cover-saves-in-40k/

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PostSubject: Re: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 16:11

@SERAFF wrote:
Under fortification we could understand Bastion, as ADL and Landing Pad have their own cover save rules.
All true except ADL, ADL only gives a 4+ coversave.

One fun trick you can exploit to get the boosted cover save is to block a raider with another raider so that you are completely blocking everything but the nose. The nose wedge is the front armour so you'll get a 4+ save (5 for the intervening raider + 1 for not being able to see the side armour)
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PostSubject: Re: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2013, 12:57

Sorta/kinda on topic.

I played at an event where it was discussed that the AGL can't actually benefit Raiders/Ravagers/Venoms 'cause the flying base puts them above the AGL and doesn't actually provide any percent cover on a flat table top. The point is that 6th is very, "As modeled" and so even though a skimmer is behind the AGL, it doesn't actually block any of the model.

Now the good news to this is that the reverse is also true. Intervening model saves are considerably less likely to occur 'cause the skimmer is above the scrum.

Thoughts on this? I've adopted this approach 'cause it seems right.

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PostSubject: Re: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2013, 13:13

Ok, time to share a little secret with you guys that many people miss....

When rolling on warlord traits, ALWAYS roll on "strategic". Not only do you want to get the "nightfight" one, but if you roll a "1", you should be happy as well.

Why?

Well, it is the "stealth ruins" trait which also grants move through cover.

If you read it carefully, it says "all your UNITS...."

This means your vehicles too.

So park your venom in a ruin, never worry about taking dangerous terrain tests, and enjoy your nice 3+ cover save for your vehicle.


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PostSubject: Re: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2013, 14:21

Ha, yes Skul, I've been preaching about that for ages! I'm not even clicking on those links LSK, there is no way that any terrain can have an impact on Jink saves, the two things are entirely seperate. So, by extension,Wango, if you can arrange a Raider behind a Bastion so that the facing being shot at is completely hidden you can get a 2+ coversave. What do people think of that?
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PostSubject: Re: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2013, 18:09

@Timatron: I am not sure I wrote somewhere that cover save adds to Jink save. Maybe I should have written that on some cases, , according to these links,  a piece of terrain can help you benefit a better jink cover save.
If you read the article (the first one especially) you can use cover to gain a "well positionned angle" bonus. And the +1 bonus stacks with Jink. Just take time to read it (5 minutes), and read the comments.

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PostSubject: Re: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2013, 21:32

From the first link:

Quote :
Jink + Stealth + well-positioned angle = 3+ cover save....
Flat out + Stealth + well-positioned angle = 2+ cover save.
These are incorrect though, as well-positioned angle requires something to completely obscure a face, and the +1 only improves the cover provided by that thing, not any other cover save like that from Jink.
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PostSubject: Re: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2013, 21:53

Thank you! Exactly what I was driving at. You can't mix and match coversaves, be that from types of terrain or other means like jink. Am I on the right track with the Bastion thing do you reckon Wango?
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PostSubject: Re: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2013, 23:19

The author of the article may be wrong. I would be happy to understand clearly this, as english is not my native language. Could you please give some references in BRB so I can check by myself?

Maybe this is a wrong interpretation of page 73 figure which explain what faces can be shot at, depending on the diagonals?
On page 75 fig.3 the eldars are inside the front side diagonals, but they can only see the side of the rhino.
So normally, they should be able to shoot at the front, but this one is fully hidden and it gives a +1 bonus to the rhino cover save (maybe meaning some of the ammo would glance on the side of the rhino due to the angle).

Please explain me where there is a mistake. I don't want to argue, I just want to understand what's wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2013, 23:48

No problem. Check the paragraph before the examples in figures 1, 2 and 3, where the rule is defined.
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PostSubject: Re: 3+ cover save for vehicles?   3+ cover save for vehicles? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 11 2013, 06:40

Quote :
the vehicle receives a cover save one point better than that given by the cover obscuring the vehicle's other facing.
OK, understood! The bonus is added to the cover save given by the piece of terrain, not to a "different cover save"
Thanks Wink

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