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forest1990
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PostSubject: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 06 2013, 14:21

I know this ones been asked by several others before but i tend to play out side the conventional tactica.
Im trying to decide which pain engine would better fit my army.   Im going to proxy carnifexs till i actually get 3+ each.  Only reason im realy taking them at all is i only have 2k in De if i use extra fluffs and use models as their upgraded counter parts(wyches and Kwarriors as brides and trueborn).

Anyway list primarily consist of a lilith, vect and hid dias with wyches/brides.  And 4raidrs with truborn/warriors. Also tale 6 jet bikes for a couple cheap shots.

Play style is pretty obvious. Hit first and fast targeting mechs and anythimg with good range.  The vect and dias crew are more bait and ranged support then actual fightrs but they clean up towards the end.
My dilema:
Talos has some beautiful range options. The cronos is a feeding frenzy on clean up duty.
Both reletivly destructive in CC.

Side note also thinking of grabing a few wracks to accompany vect and lillith instead of wyches.

Please do not use Chat/L33t speak as it is against the rule. Cheers - Cavash.
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 06 2013, 20:44

The Cronos is all smoke no mirror.
I love it, but it is not destructive in CC, 1A is 1A, although mine did pop a tau commander once!

It is 100pts (with the second gun), and draws fire like mad, scoring a few PTs is just a fun bonus
The Talos is nails, but its situational, it might run through an army, or it might roll a 1 on its attacks.

The Cronos, if you wage psychological war on the other side, draws fire and pt for pt is our toughest unit.
"Before we start, I've got to explain pain tokens, whenever these guys kill a squad, they get a PT, the first, blah blah blah. Now this Cronos, he gets one whenever he kills a model, AND he can give it anyone within 12"

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forest1990
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 06 2013, 21:22

Ill be running them across the bored behind the raiders or sitting on objectives if its guns never tire. Case thatd be any differnce. But other words talos would be the more effective? I dont mind having a decoy to save my raiders but that was vects original position. And since most my FLGS us familiar with my codex their not realy subject to psycological. Less ofcoyrse its Doom Of Malanti. Cause he is as destructive as his lore. Coincidental i think but my locals cant roll LD for nothin....except the tau player snd his single unit of kroot.
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Billy912
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 06 2013, 21:57

For your list I would go with a chronos, you already have a very close combat based army that could use FNP if they get stuck in a few rounds of combat also it's cheaper as I would never use talos without chain-flais otherwise it's just too risky.

I would sugest giving it spirit vortex and blasting apart any swarms or low toughness models also I would use it to cover your raiders/reaverd at least for a turn.
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forest1990
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 06 2013, 23:20

CC? I only have one unit mayb more if i break em up. Bride, vect , lillith is one unit their good but they dont stand a chance if i seperate them.  Everything else is KWarriors.  Thats   kinda my dilema.  Plenty of AI plenty of AT.  But all boats. Figured a MC could ad support/defense.  Should i go more ranged weapons and support with a cheap. Cronos.  Or use a versatile unit and go talos.  I can use combinations of them but still trouble deciding.

Was looking over some ideas in youtube and few other sites. I noticed alot of players bring one of each.. i can understand running them in pairs to rip everything apart. Granting the benefits of both But anyone that took just cronos focused on portal lists. They all made vallid points on the engines lack of speed but is the portald a must? Or would a first wave 2nd wave concept function.

Also i guess my question should be re worded to what combination(s) would work? 1each, 2talos/cronos, 3of a kind, 2and1?.?

I've merged your double post. This is the second action that has been taken in this thread in the last hour. If you need to familiarise yourself here are the rules: https://www.thedarkcity.net/t5-the-dark-city-forum-rules-please-read
Cavash.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 07 2013, 16:11

I have a Talos, and most of the time it doesn't do much for me. It's not an adequate or necessary distraction, as by and large nothing else in my army is that keen for a fight anyway, it can't keep up with everything else when it redeploys and it's guns are short ranged. Also, and perhaps most importantly, it takes up a slot that a Ravager could be filling. I love the model, but haven't had much luck with it - in an all vehicular or jump army, it doesn't serve much purpose.

The one time I proxied it as a Cronos, however, it actually did quite well, dishing out pain tokens to my nearby units, but this was only because a drop pod scattered towards it. That being said, I'd still pick the Cronos over the Talos now, and wish I'd built it as such. It's cheaper, just as tough, and if both of them are in the same position in relation to the enemy it'll probably be the Cronos that's gets to do what it does best. There are just too many ways out there now to stop stuff getting a charge in, or neuter the charging unit, even for a monstrous creature like the Talos - random charge distance, overwatch, storm shields and the like. That's before you take into account that the Talos has a random number of attacks anyway.

I vote Cronos!

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 08 2013, 01:19

I have one of each, and I don't run Ravagers; stay away from the meta, the bad,bad meta!
In my usual 1650 list I take the Cronos every time. It has a reliable AP3 template weapon and it's a reasonably cheap upgrade to give it the pain-token squirting CC weapon too. I tend to march it towards whichever mid-field objective I think is going to get most hairy, it beats up Meqs or non-assault oriented troops with relative ease and bolsters a KW unit so they can more effectively claim the objective later. In many games it's been a veritable FNP machine. I originally started planning to play DE right towards the end of 5th, when the FNP, and to a lesser extent, coversaves, were a bit more generous. I had originally planned a full Coven army with 3 engines. But of course, in the current game, with the nerf to basic assault-based armies and the advent of flyers, I needs me my warriors! And my dual Razorwings. But I still wouldn't leave home for a standard 1650 game without my trusty Cronos. You might as well ask me to drop my 5 Scourge with HWB from the list while you were at it; never going to happen!
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clively
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 00:49

I also run a cronos in 1500 or above.

I've had too many games where this seemingly useless unit wracked up an impressive tally of tokens. The best was when it had passed out 10 tokens before finally succumbing to 2 rounds of 2 different heldrakes vector striking it along with an untold number of bolter shots.

Priceless... and now one of the most feared units in our local group. <queue maniacal laughter>

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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 01:26

I haven't played with the talos enough yet, but the two times I did, it did very little before it died.

The cronos however has been an MVP in so many of my games. He's deceptively effective. Spirit Vortex, is the bomb. Literally. Drop it on anything, it should kill at least one model. That's a pain token.

Theoretically this monster could get 4 pain tokens in a turn. And hand three out. He can absorb most fire directed at him. And he's not really a slouch in an assault. just be wary of krak grenades.

I find he beats the talos because he does something the talos can't do, and honestly, the talos can't do anything better than we already have. Heat lance is cheaper on bikes, splinter cannon is cheaper on venoms, haywire blasters are better and cheaper on scourges. A squad of wyches with haywire grenades will generate more attacks and destroy vehicles faster. He's just tougher than all those units, but a group of sterngaurd with hellfire rounds don't care about that!

But what unit has a large blast AP3 pie plate that makes any inherently fragile unit within 12" tougher? This guy!

Want a cool story bro? My Incubi with one pain token were poised to attack a group of space marines. Pie plate + 1 pain token to the incubi. Furious charge. S5 AP2 attacks.
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 17:36

Loving this thread since it's making me look at the Cronos in a much different light.

Can a pain token be assigned to a unit in a Venom/Raider or does the unit have to be on the ground for it to be able to accept the PT from the Cronos?
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 17:55

Good question!
I always play it as you can give them to units embarked on transports; it doesn't say you can't, plus our guys are supposed to be hanging out of/off of the vehicles anyway so fluff-wise it makes sense too.
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 19:00

The closest that I can get into finding anything covering the targeting of an embarked unit for any reason would be in the BRB FAQ where a question is asked if a power like Psychic Scream and other effects that cause leadership tests affect vehicles and embarked units. The answer is no; however, I interpret this is due to vehicles and embarked units being fearless more than any inability to target them.

If anyone finds a clarification that would be awesome (I'll ask on dakka in a bit).
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 19:16

From Dakka - the answer is no...the model/unit must be on the ground and not in a transport.

Quote :
It is the requirement to measure to the base of the targeted unit that prevents you from targeting units in a transport. While logic would dictate that they are in the transport, therefore the distance is the same, the rules do not work on this logic. They tell us that the unit in the transport is currently 'off the table' which makes it impossible to make the measurements required. Even if you had a weapon that was an unlimited range and didn't require line of sight you still could not target the unit in the transport because you still are required to measure, and simply can not measure to or from a model that is not on the table.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/556883.page
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Seelenberührer
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 20:14

I agree with some of the follow-up posters, though. You absolutely CAN measure to them, and beyond that, I'm not sure you actually need to be able to "target" them as such, do you? They just need to be within 12". There is no requirement for LOS.
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 20:49

Good point. Relooking over that thread, the discussion seems to still have outstanding questions concerning non-LoS requirements.
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forest1990
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PostSubject: Re: picking talos or cronos    picking talos or cronos  I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10 2013, 18:47

well on that note, why not a handfull of us get together and re-evaluaite all the units in our dex and their relevance to 6th. aswell as ally options and how and why.



as far as my original post Talos or cronos, cronos is almost pointless if i cant benefit form the pain tokens he generates to near by units.

my sumarry: Talos has the punching power and fire power to stand his own, cronos is still a effective mid-range/counter assault. but in the end, for my opinion, Talos ability to play duel/dedicated roles for approxamatly 100-150pts would be better siuted for a raider/venom based list. cronos is better siuted to a CC based list, most likley sky boards, reavers, or footslogging wyches/homunculi.

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