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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 16 2013, 20:50

Hope this is ok to post: I did a search and didn't find anything which seemed to directly cover this topic.

I played a game yesterday and had the Baron and a unit of bare bones Hellions in the list (i.e. no Helliarch). I had a very frustrating challenge involving the Baron and whilst he put some wounds onto the marine captain they bounced off the captain's armour.

So this got me wondering if a Helliarch with some sort of power weapon upgrade (i.e. PW or Agoniser) is worth adding to the squad. I normally shy away from expensive upgrades on DE but I think in this case they might be worth taking.

Bonuses I can see:
Some one else to step into a challenge if I want to either want the Baron to go fight regular guys or avoid someone scary.

AP3 gives more reliable wounds against MEQ (certainly true with Agoniser, less so with the S3 power weapon)

Disadvantages:
Expensive: helliarch upgrade plus the weapon adds to the points costs of the unit, particularly true
with the Agoniser
I haven't considered the venom blade or stunclaw but would welcome opinions.

So Helliarchs! Yay or Nay? And if yay what flavour?


Last edited by Sand Viper on Mon Sep 16 2013, 20:51; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : double negative in first line. doh)
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 16 2013, 23:56

I think you've answered your own question - If you want the Baron to avoid unpleasant challenges then take the Helliarch and if you want him (or her) to have a shot at killing something tough-ish then take the agoniser - and/or take the grenade launcher for added mayhem.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 17 2013, 00:02

I will be (finally) using Hellions on Saturday, with the Baron. I've put a Helliarch in there with a stunclaw, because I just thought the extra attack is always handy, as is a leadership equivalent to the Baron if he should bite the dust. My thinking with the stunclaw was that for such a meagre amount of points, I didn't really lose anything that a hellglaive gave me, and gained the ability to grab those skulking, challenge refusing characters out of a combat. Everyone always fixates on the stunclaw as if it's only going to be grabbing ICs like Abaddon, Ghazghkull or a Phoenix Lord, saying 'Yeah, you'll grab him, drag him away and he'll eat you single handedly, nice one,' but I see them as being more useful for yoinking Ethereals, Imperial Guard ICs and the like out. They'll refuse every challenge offered, but they can't escape the stunclaw! You can grab them out, direct all your attacks at them, then charge the now much easier to break unit they were in.

The Agoniser could also be really useful in the situation you've described - I would in fact have equipped my Helliarch that way, if it hadn't have been for the fact that when I first read the rules for the stunclaw I started cackling maniacally Twisted Evil 

It's a yay to the Helliarch from me, and I'd go with either the agoniser or the stunclaw. The baron already wounds most stuff on 2s on the charge anyway, so wounding isn't the problem, like you say - it's getting through that pesky power armour!

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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 17 2013, 07:43

Hmm I had not considered the stunclaw for getting those pesky character wimps into combat. Great idea. I might have to try that one

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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 17 2013, 10:09

yeah the stun claw is funny when it works. for a meagre amount of points it's a standard upgrade that i use.

as with most DE it's good to tag team the unit so the "snatched" model's unit can't assault you next turn

my mate plays and eldrad eldar list and dosen't like him being taken away from his unit of 20 guardians to face lots of attacks.

Might i suggest running the baron with list if your not already. the double roll on the drug table is to good to pass up, especially if you have a lot of drug troops and need to negate that pesky "1" roll on the table
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 17 2013, 14:44

never take a stun claw. It is useless as an upgrade and is just a gimmick weapon.

If you dont want to waste the points on a agoniser, a power lance can be a decent replacement due to H&R. Just make sure you kill their champ on that charge, because any turn after and he is toast.

As for a captain challenging, its better to have baron take it, as he will make mince meat out of any hellion helliarch he runs into. At that point though its nice to have the champ be able to chew on the squad and give you some decent damage output while baron gets slapped around some.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 17 2013, 18:47

Great responses guys!

I must admit I'd forgotten about the PW alternatives! Lance looks a nice cheap alternative to an Agoniser especially with the hit and run.

Interesting perspectives on the stun claw as well. I must admit at the moment I'm looking for a reliable means of wounding MEQ so the power weapon/agoniser options are looking more attractive.

Adding the Duke isn't really an option at the moment really. Running double HQ isn't viable (only playing at 1k points at the moment), and the Baron seems to be key to making the hellions viable.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 17 2013, 18:51

Quote :
never take a stun claw. It is useless as an upgrade and is just a gimmick weapon.
It was ok, before chalenges. Contrary to the popular belief it was never a thing to kill enemy IC, it is actually a mobility tool. Properly used it added a whole hit'n'run movement to helions, making them able to perform 2 hit'n'runs per turn.

You assault on your turn, do some damage, snatch and hit'n'run, then you are alone with enemy and ic and *nobody can shot you*, nor can ic unit fight you. You suffer the damage from IC, kill him and consolidate or not and make another hit'n'run.

Now its your turn you can move again. Thats a lot of space covered, just enough to reach enemy squad near objective.

With chalenges however you cant snatch character from chalenge. So it kinda make it harder.

Hellions arent supposed to fight tough squads anyway. They are mayhem agents and troops mopper, able to assault and take an objective.

There was a lot of paint tokens shenanigans in 5th with them, it is mostly useless now, they cant lead the charge anylonger with worse cover and worse FnP. They are still ok though, one of the better troops choice for actually scoring objective.


Last edited by Azdrubael on Tue Sep 17 2013, 19:10; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 17 2013, 18:58

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
never take a stun claw. It is useless as an upgrade and is just a gimmick weapon.
It was ok, before chalenges. Contrary to the popular belief it was never a thing to kill enemy IC, it is actually a mobility tool. Properly used it added a whole hit'n'run movement to helions, making them able to perform 2 hit'n'runs per turn.

You assault on your turn, do some damage, snatch and hit'n'run, then you are alone with enemy and ic and *nobody can shot you*, nor can ic unit fight you. You suffer the damage from IC, kill him and consolidate or not and make another hit'n'run.

Now its your turn you can move again. Thats a lot of space covered, just enough to reach enemy squad near objective.

With chalenges however you cant snatch character from chalenge. So it kinda make it harder.
That is genius! Hadn't twigged that particular benefit of using the claw.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 17 2013, 20:23

@Azdrubael wrote:
With chalenges however you cant snatch character from chalenge. So it kinda make it harder.
I'm sorry if I'm just missing something obvious, but what does a challenge do to stop a stunclaw? It isn't like the stunclaw has to actually hit it's IC target or can only target one in base to base contact, right? Plus wouldn't challenges be negated with hit and run since combat is ending?
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 17 2013, 20:44

@Ubernoob1 wrote:
@Azdrubael wrote:
With chalenges however you cant snatch character from chalenge. So it kinda make it harder.
I'm sorry if I'm just missing something obvious, but what does a challenge do to stop a stunclaw? It isn't like the stunclaw has to actually hit it's IC target or can only target one in base to base contact, right? Plus wouldn't challenges be negated with hit and run since combat is ending?
Just read about it in the DE FAQ:
Q: Can a Helliarch’s stun claw be used to ‘snatch’ enemy Independent Characters who are involved in a challenge? (p28)
A: No.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 17 2013, 20:48

@Sand Viper wrote:
@Ubernoob1 wrote:
@Azdrubael wrote:
With chalenges however you cant snatch character from chalenge. So it kinda make it harder.
I'm sorry if I'm just missing something obvious, but what does a challenge do to stop a stunclaw? It isn't like the stunclaw has to actually hit it's IC target or can only target one in base to base contact, right? Plus wouldn't challenges be negated with hit and run since combat is ending?
Just read about it in the DE FAQ:
Q: Can a Helliarch’s stun claw be used to ‘snatch’ enemy Independent Characters who are involved in a challenge? (p28)
A: No.
Shocked *facepalms* wow... okay thanks, sorry.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 17 2013, 21:00

Don't apologise! I just learnt that as well.

I'm really glad I started this thread - finding out loads of stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2013, 06:45

What's stopping the Helliarch from declining a challenge, hiding out in the back, then when they hit & run grabbing the IC and skedaddling like a cackling maniac?
-"When performing a Hit and Run, a Helliarch may nominate..." p.28 DE Codex
-"Refusing a Challenge... If you refuse, your opponent gets to nominate one of your characters... The chosen model cannot strike blows at all ths turn..."

Reads to me like the stunclaw snatch isn't an attack at all; it's something that happens after the initiative count, so isn't a "blow" per se. It's an add-on to the Hit & Run rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2013, 10:44

@Laughingcarp wrote:
What's stopping the Helliarch from declining a challenge, hiding out in the back, then when they hit & run grabbing the IC and skedaddling like a cackling maniac?
-"When performing a Hit and Run, a Helliarch may nominate..." p.28 DE Codex
-"Refusing a Challenge... If you refuse, your opponent gets to nominate one of your characters... The chosen model cannot strike blows at all ths turn..."

Reads to me like the stunclaw snatch isn't an attack at all; it's something that happens after the initiative count, so isn't a "blow" per se. It's an add-on to the Hit & Run rules.
That's how I read it too, and as far as I know there's nothing stopping you doing this. Declining a challenge just means the model can't attack or use their leadership, and this is an ability, not an attack. He just can't snatch anyone involved in a challenge. Unless you're making a last ditch play to keep enemy troops off an objective though, you shouldn't really have either of the characters that could potentially be in the unit locked in a challenge that they can't win in one turn anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2013, 14:05

I suppose he would die before he could, but surely the intent cant be to stop the helliarch snatching the IC he is fighting?

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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2013, 17:37

Hmm...and that is a rational thought, althou the price for such move will be Barons contribution to the fight. However he can still tank.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2013, 22:06

I would recommend the agoniser/PW because it's the Baron somehow doesn't have a power weapon and having one really helps you tear through MEQ. Otherwise you're relying on volume of attacks, which as you already know isn't very reliable. The stunclaw is cute, but I don't think it's the best use of Hellions.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Upgrades   Hellion Upgrades I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 18 2013, 22:17

Yep, definitely thinking of reliable wounds rather than stunclaw tricks.

My dice rolling sucks in assaults generally; the Baron wiffed his first shadowfield save in the challenge and I was lucky not to lose him and give away Slay the Warlord after that. Hit and run saved his neck!
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