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 WWP list, can it work?

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Spiney Norman
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Spiney Norman

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PostSubject: WWP list, can it work?   WWP list, can it work? I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 11 2013, 11:15

I'm getting a little bored with my standard 'kids in venoms' list and wanted to try something a little different. I'm looking to take my Kabal in a more coveny direction, by adding in Taloi, grots etc. I'm also kind of interested in leaving the transports at home and running my CC units through WWPs to get to the enemy lines instead.

What are the pros/cons of this type of list, how many WWP bearing characters should I bring and what sort of units work best with this type of setup?
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: WWP list, can it work?   WWP list, can it work? I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 11 2013, 11:24

You will need to bring at least 2 WWP carriers to mitigate the chances of them being taken out before they can place the portal. I'd probably keep them in transports to give them a bit of protection on Turn 1 and add a bit more mobility and range for them to deploy the portals.

Once the portals are down then you probably need to look at the survivability of any units that you want to come out of the portal as they are going to be standing there like lemons for a turn thanks to the stupid 'no assault' rule. Taloi or Grot's fit the bill, and as you can't have the Grot's in a transport then you could potentially go for a bigger unit to draw enemy fire. 10 Grotesques (or 2 x 5) is a pretty fearsome proposition!

Downside to all this is that you may not have much on the table on turn 1 and you're going to miss out on ranged AT or AA if you take Pain Engines in the heavy slots. Maybe consider taking some allies to fill the gaps?

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WWP list, can it work? YhBv3Wk
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Skyboard surfer
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PostSubject: Re: WWP list, can it work?   WWP list, can it work? I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 11 2013, 11:51

I think the Count sums it up very well - and I might think about that big Grot unit just to see the look on people's faces when they appear!

I have toyed with the idea of a sacrificial kabalite unit to come out and screen the assault troops.

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Spiney Norman
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Spiney Norman

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PostSubject: Re: WWP list, can it work?   WWP list, can it work? I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 11 2013, 13:59

@Skyboard surfer wrote:
I think the Count sums it up very well - and I might think about that big Grot unit just to see the look on people's faces when they appear!

I have toyed with the idea of a sacrificial kabalite unit to come out and screen the assault troops.
I've been thinking something similar
2 haemonculi, each with a WWP in raiders with 9 warriors in, move them up 6" T1, spit the haemy out to deploy the portal and leave the warriors embarked. Then next turn move the raider up, the warriors disembark to screen squads emerging from the portals.

Is the any reason I cannot bring an allied unit through a WWP?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: WWP list, can it work?   WWP list, can it work? I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 11 2013, 14:05

@Spiney Norman wrote:
Is the any reason I cannot bring an allied unit through a WWP?
Sadly the FAQ ruled that out.

Q: Can units from allied detachment use a webway portal to enter play from reserve? (p62)
A: No.


Or at least that is what GW intended to do. What they actually did was enable units from a primary detachment to enter through an allied DE WWP even though the DE themselves can't! Shocked

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WWP list, can it work? YhBv3Wk
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eris
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PostSubject: Re: WWP list, can it work?   WWP list, can it work? I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 11 2013, 14:10

@Spiney Norman wrote:
Is the any reason I cannot bring an allied unit through a WWP?
The FAQ states that you cannot.
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Obyiscus
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PostSubject: Re: WWP list, can it work?   WWP list, can it work? I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 11 2013, 14:15

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Spiney Norman wrote:
Is the any reason I cannot bring an allied unit through a WWP?
Sadly the FAQ ruled that out.

Q: Can units from allied detachment use a webway portal to enter play from reserve? (p62)
A: No.


Or at least that is what GW intended to do. What they actually did was enable units from a primary detachment to enter through an allied DE WWP even though the DE themselves can't! Shocked
If people wanted to be jerks they could exploit this so much. All I'm imagining right now are tides of orks coming through the webway (like in the DE codex when they trick the orks to charge through the webway straight into a planet)

Please do not swear. Cheers - Cavash
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: WWP list, can it work?   WWP list, can it work? I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 11 2013, 15:53

I would note that currently the best units to come out of a WWP are actually our Fast Attack options - RJBs and Scourges actually work pretty well coming out of the portal.

...of course, they work just as well not coming out, thus sort of killing the purpose of the portal, but...

Coven units are assault units, the only value of the portal is if it will work better than transports. Generally speaking this is not likely to happen, but you can do it. The big thing to remember is to bring enough anti-mech shooting to try to ensure there are assault targets available for your men by Turn 3 which is the first chance they'll get to charge.

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Spiney Norman
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PostSubject: Re: WWP list, can it work?   WWP list, can it work? I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 12 2013, 00:16

@Thor665 wrote:
I would note that currently the best units to come out of a WWP are actually our Fast Attack options - RJBs and Scourges actually work pretty well coming out of the portal.

...of course, they work just as well not coming out, thus sort of killing the purpose of the portal, but...

Coven units are assault units, the only value of the portal is if it will work better than transports. Generally speaking this is not likely to happen, but you can do it. The big thing to remember is to bring enough anti-mech shooting to try to ensure there are assault targets available for your men by Turn 3 which is the first chance they'll get to charge.
While WWPs might not be better than transports, surely its still valid that two WWPs are the same points cost as a single flicker raider, so if I bring three units through a portal that would otherwise have needed a transport each then I have more points available to spend on the squads themselves, not to mention that DE transports are probably the easiest way to get points out our list, on average I lose about 2-3 a turn.

What's more units like pain engines or larger grot units cannot take transports so the WWP strategy benefits them more.
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eris
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PostSubject: Re: WWP list, can it work?   WWP list, can it work? I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 12 2013, 00:27

As I see it, the problem is 2 fold..

1) There's no reliable way to get a WWP forwards.. it's very easy to kill the two rather conspicuous raiders that are carrying your WWPs on turn 1. If your opponent's going first (which should be 50% of the time) then that basically negates all value of having them and puts you at quite a disadvantage overall.

2) Your reserves may turn up early. Since you can't get your WWP down till turn 2 really (if you're deploying it turn 1, you might as well footslog everything) then your reserves cant use it till turn 3. Since they're coming in on a 3+ on turn 2 a decent number will probably end up coming on your edge and so be further back than if you'd footslogged.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: WWP list, can it work?   WWP list, can it work? I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 12 2013, 04:24

@Spiney Norman wrote:
While WWPs might not be better than transports, surely its still valid that two WWPs are the same points cost as a single flicker raider, so if I bring three units through a portal that would otherwise have needed a transport each then I have more points available to spend on the squads themselves, not to mention that DE transports are probably the easiest way to get points out our list, on average I lose about 2-3 a turn.
Of course it is a valid point that 2 WWPs fall in the same price range as 1 Raider. I would hope so, because WWPs are inferior to Raiders in basically every metric when it comes to carrying assault troops.

A Raider will get them into assault faster.
A Raider also provides additional shooting support (specifically a lance, which is highly beneficial as a support piece to assault troops)
A Raider has battlefield presence after dropping its load, being able to block enemy advances, or help move other infantry units around, in addition to continued fire pressure.

Though you have more to spend on your squads via the WWP purchase, I think you are forgetting that by running WWP list you also need to buy portal delivery units. That is costing you HQ slots (generally Haems) that are obligated to start on the board and also to move and react in certain ways to get portals down in meaningful positions.

So, actual cost of 2 WWPs is not actually the 70 you're suggesting, it's closer to 170 - and that's without any sort of transport or escort unit to help them place the portals (which, though also a cost is mitigated insomuch as you'd probably buy other units anyway)

Still, at 170 - the cost of the WWP delivery system is more akin to 3 naked Raiders or 2 heavily amped up Raiders. So...how much price saving is there in your slower delivery system?

The other argument in favor of WWPs (and believe me, I'm familiar with them, I've worked WWP lists for years) is the advantage of being shot at less. Yes, your units will be slower (not managing functional charges till turn 3 at the earliest, when in Raiders it's possible to do Turn 1 at the earliest and Turn 2 at the latest) However, though they are slower they're 'safer' because you get shot less.

The thing is, I don't think you do get shot that much less.
Here's the best case WWP situation;

Turn 1: Portal deployed.
Turn 2: Your unit appears and moves into charge range.
Bottom of 2 or Top of 3: Your opponent shoots your unit.
Then you get to charge.

Out of a Raider you will be charging Turn 2 at the latest.
If you go 2nd that means the opponent will shoot at you twice.
If you go first that means they will shoot at you once.

So, in the *best* WWP situation I get shot at once. In the average Raider situation I get shot at once or twice - and generally they're shooting at the Raider and need to deal with that, so usually what I'm dealing with is an explosion rather than enemy shooting which, whatever people say, exploding vehicles tend to hurt less than most enemy shooting.

So, even then, I'm not sure what big advantage I'm getting.
Yes, it is possible (indeed, likely) that some Raiders will be shot down.
It is also likely that some of your WWP units won't show up till turn 3-4.
So either way you will have units delayed getting into combat, and likely having to walk a bit to get where they are going.

I don't see a clear win either way on that metric.

Raiders do allow me more freedom to get where I want to go, are not remotely as hindered by Hammer and Anvil Deployment (which seriously hurts WWPs versus gunline builds) and also are potent and useful for target saturation and weight of lance fire early game, both being the times those issues are most important.

WWP can "work but it is competitively inferior to Raiders as far as getting assault elements into the game. I think it's also inferior for bringing int RJBs and Scourges, but at least what it does kind of benefits those units in a conceptual sense as they are useful the turn they arrive and can benefit a bit more by showing up mid game. Still, generally I'd rather have them to start with as well.

@Spiney Norman wrote:
What's more units like pain engines or larger grot units cannot take transports so the WWP strategy benefits them more.
The Talos benefits, albeit by being an MC it has, to a certain extent, the ability to march up the field anyway - certainly moreso than most units in the codex. Also, frankly, it will get there quicker by not being in a WWP more than likely, all the WWP grants it is 1-2 additional turns o not being shot at. Certainly not a bad thing, and I would agree that benefits the Talos...of course I think the Talos is a suboptimal unit, so using a strategy to help a sub optimal unit perform better seems not as good as using a strategy that helps an optimal unit perform better.

Grots can take transports - though if you meant 'Grot units of a certain size cannot take transports' then I will agree with you, certainly if you want 5+ Grots then it is either footslogging or WWP for them. That said, I actually think a unit of 5+ Grots is one of our better WWP deployment units...so at least for me I wouldn't even want to put them inside the portal if I was going to field them, but your mileage may vary.

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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Re: WWP list, can it work?   WWP list, can it work? I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 12 2013, 16:38

@Thor - A very thorough, and entirely accurate breakdown.
WWP lists were my preference before 6th came along, now I just don't find them competitive.

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